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BLD Ex99 PtII Pg43 #2 & #6

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BLD Ex99 PtII Pg43 #2 & #6

Postby mariek » Sun Jul 27, 2003 5:06 am

<br />We finally got to possesive pronouns!<br /><br />#2 My son Sextus is carrying his booty to the Roman camp.<br /> Meus filius Sexte suam praedam ad castras Romanis portat.<br /><br />Is this correct? This question had a footnote saying that it is not the Dative, and asks why. I'm not sure why. :( Since they already said not the Dative, I figured it couldn't be anything other than the Ablative. Is this correct? I took a guess that I would need to use "ad".<br /><br /><br />#6 The camp is mine, but the weapons are yours.<br /> Castra est mea, sed tela sunt tua.<br /><br />This one threw me off. I know that castra is plural (of castrum). I wasn't sure whether meum should be pluralized to match castra. When I pluralized it, it became mea which looks just like the feminine version. I had the same question about pluralizing tuum to become tua.<br /><br />
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Re:BLD Ex99 PtII Pg93 #2 & #6

Postby benissimus » Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:14 am

#2 Sextus looks like a nominative, though it could be a a vocative as you put it (though unlikely). Romanis must match with castras so ad castras Romanas. If you meant to use the neuter castrum, castri then it would be ad castra Romana, otherwise you are fine with the femine alternative castras.<br /><br />What it meant by saying "it is not Dative" is that "to the Roman camp" is the sense of "towards" (ad) and not the sense of "for/to" (dative).<br /><br />#6 This one is correct, but only if you use the word castra, castrae (an alternative to castrum, castri). The possessive pronouns always matches with case, even if it does look like it could be something else. The reason this is not correct if you use the neuter castra is that you used est which only works with a singular subject.
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Re:BLD Ex99 PtII Pg43 #2 & #6

Postby bingley » Sun Jul 27, 2003 2:58 pm

The reason this is not correct if you use the neuter castra is that you used est which only works with a singular subject
<br /><br />Have I gone completely round the bend, or isn't there a rule that a neuter plural can take a singular verb?
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Re:BLD Ex99 PtII Pg43 #2 & #6

Postby mariek » Sun Jul 27, 2003 7:46 pm

<br />Mariek wrote:<br />#2 My son Sextus is carrying his booty to the Roman camp.<br /> Meus filius Sexte suam praedam ad castras Romanis portat.<br /><br />Benissimus wrote:<br />#2 Sextus looks like a nominative, though it could be a a vocative as you put it (though unlikely). Romanis must match with castras so ad castras Romanas. If you meant to use the neuter castrum, castri then it would be ad castra Romana, otherwise you are fine with the femine alternative castras.
<br /><br />You're right, I don't know what I was thinking there. Sextus does look like a nominative now that I reread the sentence.<br /><br />I thought that castrum must be plural to have the meaning of "camp", thus castra. So castris is ABL neuter plural. Ah, I see the problem. I had wanted to say "...ad castris Romanis portat". Which is why I used Romanis (ABL plur of Romanus).<br /><br />I don't follow your last sentence about "ad castra Romana". There's clearly something I don't understand about the word castrum, castra, etc. So there is the neuter noun castrum, and the feminine noun castra? <br />
<br />What it meant by saying "it is not Dative" is that "to the Roman camp" is the sense of "towards" (ad) and not the sense of "for/to" (dative).
<br /><br />Hmm... those prepositions in English don't translate the same in Latin, do they! Ok, I'll have to remember this one.<br /><br />I just started reading the section about "Ablative Denoting With", which Episcopus had mentioned earlier in some other thread. It clarifies which situations require "cum" with the Ablative. It's really helpful! Don't use cum with Cause or Means, but use cum for Accompaniment or Manner. <br />
<br />Mariek wrote:<br />#6 The camp is mine, but the weapons are yours.<br /> Castra est mea, sed tela sunt tua.<br /><br />Benissimus wrote:<br />#6 This one is correct, but only if you use the word castra, castrae (an alternative to castrum, castri). The possessive pronouns always matches with case, even if it does look like it could be something else. The reason this is not correct if you use the neuter castra is that you used est which only works with a singular subject.
<br /><br />OK, I definitely don't get the castra feminine noun thing. Would you elaborate please?<br /><br />Castra is plural which doesn't match the singular est. So I should use the singular neuter noun version, castrum. Then the sentence should read :<br /><br /> Castrum est meum, sed tela sunt tua. ???<br /><br />
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Re:BLD Ex99 PtII Pg43 #2 & #6

Postby Skylax » Sun Jul 27, 2003 7:49 pm

[quote author=bingley link=board=3;threadid=309;start=0#2028 date=1059317910]<br />
The reason this is not correct if you use the neuter castra is that you used est which only works with a singular subject
<br /><br />Have I gone completely round the bend, or isn't there a rule that a neuter plural can take a singular verb?<br />[/quote]<br /><br />In Greek, yes, yet not in Latin.<br /><br />I would like to add that castra, castrae is very badly attested. The latin uses castra, castrorum (neuter, plural)<br /><br />
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Re:BLD Ex99 PtII Pg43 #2 & #6

Postby benissimus » Mon Jul 28, 2003 3:00 am

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=309;start=0#2032 date=1059335215]<br />
<br />Mariek wrote:<br />#2 My son Sextus is carrying his booty to the Roman camp.<br /> Meus filius Sexte suam praedam ad castras Romanis portat.<br /><br />Benissimus wrote:<br />#2 Sextus looks like a nominative, though it could be a a vocative as you put it (though unlikely). Romanis must match with castras so ad castras Romanas. If you meant to use the neuter castrum, castri then it would be ad castra Romana, otherwise you are fine with the femine alternative castras.
<br /><br />You're right, I don't know what I was thinking there. Sextus does look like a nominative now that I reread the sentence.<br /><br />Yup, unless she is addressing Sextus, which is a creative take on the sentence ;)<br /><br />I thought that castrum must be plural to have the meaning of "camp", thus castra. So castris is ABL neuter plural. Ah, I see the problem. I had wanted to say "...ad castris Romanis portat". Which is why I used Romanis (ABL plur of Romanus).<br /><br />I see what you were doing, but the preposition ad takes an accusative (not an ablative), as most prepositions of motion do.<br /><br />I don't follow your last sentence about "ad castra Romana". There's clearly something I don't understand about the word castrum, castra, etc. So there is the neuter noun castrum, and the feminine noun castra?<br /><br />ad castra Romana would be the revised way of saying your ad castras Romanas. You must use the neuter accusative plural, but you used the feminine.<br /><br />
<br />What it meant by saying "it is not Dative" is that "to the Roman camp" is the sense of "towards" (ad) and not the sense of "for/to" (dative).
<br /><br />Hmm... those prepositions in English don't translate the same in Latin, do they! Ok, I'll have to remember this one.<br /><br />Indeed. If you are familiar with the verb do, dare, dedi, dat-(um) - to give, you will see whence the word "dative" is derived. It is the case by which things are given, but not moved (ad).<br /><br />I just started reading the section about "Ablative Denoting With", which Episcopus had mentioned earlier in some other thread. It clarifies which situations require "cum" with the Ablative. It's really helpful! Don't use cum with Cause or Means, but use cum for Accompaniment or Manner. [/color]<br />
<br />Mariek wrote:<br />#6 The camp is mine, but the weapons are yours.<br /> Castra est mea, sed tela sunt tua.<br /><br />Benissimus wrote:<br />#6 This one is correct, but only if you use the word castra, castrae (an alternative to castrum, castri). The possessive pronouns always matches with case, even if it does look like it could be something else. The reason this is not correct if you use the neuter castra is that you used est which only works with a singular subject.
<br /><br />OK, I definitely don't get the castra feminine noun thing. Would you elaborate please?<br /><br />What I was talking about was the feminine alternative to castrum, castri "castra, castrae," but we have been informed that it is not advisable. Since you used castra with a singular verb, it would have been correct were you using the feminine, but since to be neuter it would have to be a plural noun, it would not have worked.<br /><br />Castra is plural which doesn't match the singular est. So I should use the singular neuter noun version, castrum. Then the sentence should read :<br /><br /> Castrum est meum, sed tela sunt tua. ???<br /><br />Or else just say Castra sunt mea, sed tela sunt tua.<br /><br />[/quote]
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Re:BLD Ex99 PtII Pg43 #2 & #6

Postby mariek » Mon Jul 28, 2003 5:54 am

<br />I see what you were doing, but the preposition ad takes an accusative (not an ablative), as most prepositions of motion do.
<br /><br />Eeks, I messed up btwn ABL & ACC. When will I ever get them straight? I see why I didn't understand what you were saying earlier. I was thinking ABL and you were thinking ACC. Neuter ACC plur of castrum => castra ! So that means the adj Romanus must agree in the ACC plur => Romanos.<br /><br />So my sentence should really read:<br /> Meus filius Sexte suam praedam ad castra Romanos portat.<br />
Indeed. If you are familiar with the verb do, dare, dedi, dat-(um) - to give, you will see whence the word "dative" is derived. It is the case by which things are given, but not moved (ad).
<br /><br />Nope, we haven't done ANY verbs yet! I don't think BLD will ever talk about em... <br />
Or else just say Castra sunt mea, sed tela sunt tua.
<br /><br />OH! I need to think outside the box. I was hung up on the English "is" in the sentence, and never imagined that I could change the Latin verb to sunt.<br />
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Re:BLD Ex99 PtII Pg43 #2 & #6

Postby bingley » Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:32 am

Eeks, I messed up btwn ABL & ACC. When will I ever get them straight? I see why I didn't understand what you were saying earlier. I was thinking ABL and you were thinking ACC. Neuter ACC plur of castrum => castra ! So that means the adj Romanus must agree in the ACC plur => Romanos.<br /><br />So my sentence should really read:<br /> Meus filius Sexte suam praedam ad castra Romanos portat.<br />
<br /><br />Not quite. Don't forget, adjectives need to agree with their nounds in gender as well as case and number. So it should be castra Romana. And you've gone back to talking to Sextus rather than him being your son.
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Re:BLD Ex99 PtII Pg43 #2 & #6

Postby mariek » Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:42 am

<br />Ack! I'm just spiraling downwards this time around... >:(<br /><br />My son Sextus is carrying his booty to the Roman camp ==> Meus filius Sextus suam praedam ad castra Romana portat.<br /><br />
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Re:BLD Ex99 PtII Pg43 #2 & #6

Postby Ptolemaios » Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:36 am

I'm far from a Latin expert, but to me these sound a little better:<br /><br />1. Filius meus Sextus praedam suam ad castra Romana portat.<br />2. Castrum meum (est), sed tela tua (sunt).<br /><br />I haven't used the same method for learning Latin (so this may be nitpicking at the moment), but in Latin adjectives usually follow their noun. Also the verb usually stands at the end, and 'esse' can be missed very often.<br /><br />Vale.<br /><br />Ptolemaios<br />
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Re:BLD Ex99 PtII Pg43 #2 & #6

Postby benissimus » Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:16 am

That's a pretty fine point, but possessive adjectives tend to precede the noun which they modify unless for purposes of emphasis. I prefer the second one without est as well; it was the first translation that came to mind, but I didn't really want to get off into that :o
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Re:BLD Ex99 PtII Pg43 #2 & #6

Postby Ptolemaios » Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:57 am

This is probably getting to specific, but according to Leumann-Hofmann-Szantyr's grammar it's just the other way around: "Das Possessivpron., das im Austausch mit dem Gen. poss. steht, hat wie dieser als bestimmende unemphatisches Element seine normale Stellung hinter dem Subst. Das vorangestellte ist, wenn allein (ohne vorhergehendes zum gleichen Subst. gehörendes Attribut) stets betont". (Zweiter Band, p. 408)<br /><br />To summarize: following the noun modified is normal, preceding adds emphasis.<br /><br />Vale.<br /><br />Ptolemaios
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Re:BLD Ex99 PtII Pg43 #2 & #6

Postby Episcopus » Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:12 pm

1. German is harder than Latin. Nullum frumentum - id est.<br /><br />Das Possessivpron., das im Austausch mit dem Gen. poss. steht, hat wie dieser als bestimmende unemphatisches Element seine normale Stellung hinter dem Subst. Das vorangestellte ist, wenn allein (ohne vorhergehendes zum gleichen Subst. gehörendes Attribut) stets betont = :o<br /><br />Wie können die Deutsche Leute ihre SPRACHgefuhl haben! ???<br /><br />2. ben - nice one! "DATive" - should have worked that out!!<br />3. mariek, disrespect not Dr. D'Ooge. For he talks in detail about verbs. I am on the present, imperfect and future passive of 3rd and 4th conjugations and it is boring. It hurts. <br />I DETEST the passive. I want relative pronouns dammit.<br />
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Re:BLD Ex99 PtII Pg43 #2 & #6

Postby mariek » Mon Jul 28, 2003 4:08 pm

<br />I didn't know that you could leave out est/sunt. Very interesting.<br /><br />So I can have this sentence : Puellae pulchrae sunt, viri validi sunt.<br /><br />And shorten it to this : Puellae pulchrae, viri validi sunt. ???<br /><br />
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Re:BLD Ex99 PtII Pg43 #2 & #6

Postby vinobrien » Mon Jul 28, 2003 4:23 pm

Or even puellae viri pulchrae validi if you've been reading too much Virgil.
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Re:BLD Ex99 PtII Pg43 #2 & #6

Postby mariek » Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:47 pm

[quote author=vinobrien link=board=3;threadid=309;start=0#2110 date=1059409404]<br />Or even puellae viri pulchrae validi if you've been reading too much Virgil. [/quote]<br /><br />Since this is in the format : noun noun adj adj (and no verb!) ... I was just about to ask the silly question of how you tell which adj goes with which noun. But I figured it out a moment afterwards ... you match up the case endings. That's the beauty of Latin! :)<br />
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Re:BLD Ex99 PtII Pg43 #2 & #6

Postby Episcopus » Mon Jul 28, 2003 8:02 pm

puellae viri pulchrae validi <br /><br />What wishes he that he might do with that?! <br /><br />We only read things like that because they are old, and rare.<br /><br /><br />
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Re:BLD Ex99 PtII Pg43 #2 & #6

Postby Moerus » Mon Aug 04, 2003 3:07 pm

We finally got to possesive pronouns!<br /><br />#2 My son Sextus is carrying his booty to the Roman camp.<br /> Meus filius Sexte suam praedam ad castras Romanis portat.<br /><br />Is this correct? This question had a footnote saying that it is not the Dative, and asks why. I'm not sure why. Since they already said not the Dative, I figured it couldn't be anything other than the Ablative. Is this correct? I took a guess that I would need to use "ad".<br /><br /><br />#6 The camp is mine, but the weapons are yours.<br /> Castra est mea, sed tela sunt tua.<br /><br />This one threw me off. I know that castra is plural (of castrum). I wasn't sure whether meum should be pluralized to match castra. When I pluralized it, it became mea which looks just like the feminine version. I had the same question about pluralizing tuum to become tua.<br /><br />
<br /><br /><br />My son Sextus is carrying his booty to the Roman camp.<br /><br />Sextus, filius meus, praedam suam in / ad castra Romanorum portat. <br /><br /><br />Sextus is Nominative because it is a subject. and 'my son' has to be an apposition in that way. You can also see Sextus as a vocative, then it is 'Sexte' and 'my son' is subject (Nominative). If Sextus is to be regarded as a vocative (Sexte) it normally would be between commas.<br /><br />If it's clear from the context, you can say 'praedam' without 'suam'. Although in a sentence without a context , you better say 'praedam suam'.<br /><br />In 'my son' and 'his booty' you better put the possesive pronoun after the noun. That's the way they did it in classical prose. Sometimes they did'nt, even in clssical prose, but only to emphasize. You must know that if it's clear from the context, putting a possesive pronoun is even a stess on it. If you put it before the noun it's even more emphasized!<br /><br />When you put an apposition with a nounn the most important word must preceed. This is usually the noun and the apposition usually follows. There are a few exceptions. E. G.: Darius, the King, ... = Rex Darius (when you want to put a stress oon the function of Darius) or Darius, rex, ... (When you want to speak about Darius and you mention his title, but the title is not necessary). <br />With filius the apposition is always after the noun!<br /><br />When you want to mention a direction, there are to posibilities; <br /><br />ad with the accusative (castra NOT castris) when you want to say: to the camp, but they don't go inside!<br /><br />in with the accusative, when you want to say: to the camp and they go also inside!<br /><br />There is an alternative construction for the direction: The dative of direction.<br />You can also say Castris Romanorum. But this is a poetic construction and is only mentioned by the Ancients in some sentences! You better not use teh dative, but the construcion with prepositions, cause that's the classical - prose construction.<br /><br />The Roman camp = castra Romanorum. Normally the adjective mostly indicates a quality. The genetive mostly indicates a posessor. <br /><br />castra is neuter plural in this meaning. We translate with a singular noun, but that's not a problem. <br />and the verb is singular, cause the subject is. <br /><br /><br />The camp is mine, but the weapons are yours.<br /><br />Castra mea, arma tua (vestra) sunt. <br /><br />The subject is plural, so is the verb, even when the trasnlation is singular. <br /><br />arma = weapons; tela = weapons to attack (in that specific function) <br /><br />yours: tua is correct, you can also interpretate it as a plural and then we use vestra. But I think tua is better here, cause it's opposed to mine, also singular. Although you have to see it in the context. <br /><br />So I hoped I was helpful, <br />Succes.
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Re:BLD Ex99 PtII Pg43 #2 & #6

Postby Moerus » Mon Aug 04, 2003 3:15 pm

So I can have this sentence : Puellae pulchrae sunt, viri validi sunt.<br /><br />And shorten it to this : Puellae pulchrae, viri validi sunt<br /><br /><br />Totally correct! You have to pay attention to this: <br />Vergil is a poet. It's not commun in Clzassical prose to mess up the words like puellae validi pulchrae viri or something. Vergil also had a metrical cause to mess up the words that way. It's better to write classical prose as you did. <br /><br />To write an ellips of a verb (sentence without verb), there are rules. It mostly occures with a 3th pers. sing. in active praesens of the verb esse, etc.
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Re:BLD Ex99 PtII Pg43 #2 & #6

Postby mariek » Tue Aug 05, 2003 5:39 am

[quote author=Moerus link=board=3;threadid=309;start=15#2726 date=1060009654]<br />If Sextus is to be regarded as a vocative (Sexte) it normally would be between commas. [/quote]<br /><br />I will keep my eyes out for the tell-tale commas. I also need to work on putting words like "suum" after the noun. I found all your other comments very helpful. Thanks! :) <br />
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Re:BLD Ex99 PtII Pg43 #2 & #6

Postby benissimus » Tue Aug 05, 2003 7:42 am

Don't get your hopes up... I NEVER punctuate my Latin muahahahh :P
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