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Pharr para. 88 lines 2-3

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Pharr para. 88 lines 2-3

Postby Bert » Sat Jul 26, 2003 2:58 pm

I have a few questions.<br /><br /><br />-line 2;[face=SPIonic]Xru/shj ga\r a)rhth\r e(khbo/lou e)/rxetai e)pi\ qoa\j nh=aj )Axaiw=n, fe/rei d' a)pereisi' a)/poina qugatro/j, h(\n )Atrei/dhj e)/xei e)n stratw=|[/face]<br />I think that means something like:"For Chryses the priest if the Free-Shooter comes on speedy boats of the Achaeans and he brings countless ransoms for his daughter, whom the the son of Atreus holds in the encampment".<br />Assuming my translation is correct, I have 2 questions about this. <br /><br />(1) The ransoms for his daughter. Here I would have expected the dative instead of the genitive, but I don't know how to translate it bringing out the force of the genitive.<br /><br />(2)his daughter. I inserted his because I think it is his daughter. I cannot deduce that from the grammar. Unless it said something like [face=SPIonic] qugatro\j au)tou=[/face], it could just as well have been the daughter of the Free Shooter.<br /><br /><br />-line3; [face=SPIonic]o( d' a)rhth\r e)/xei stemmata e(khbo/lou )Apo/llwnos e)n Xersi\n a)na\ Xruse/w| skh/ptrw| kai\ li/ssetai pa/ntaj )Axaiou/j, ma/lista d' )Atrei/da du/w kosmh/tore law=n.[/face]<br />I translated this as follows: "And the priest has the wreaths of the Free-Shooter Apollo in (his) hand along with(??) the golden sceptre, and he entreats all the Achaeans but especially the two sons of Atreus, the commanders of the people".<br />I could not make heads or tails out of this one until I realized that " the two sons of Atreus, the commanders of the people" is Accusative and not Vocative.<br />My question here concerns the translation of ana.<br />Ana with the dative is; (up)on , along. I made it -along with.<br />I view ana with whatever case meaning something to do with up. I streched this quite a bit here. Is this an allowable stretch?<br />
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Re:Pharr para. 88 lines 2-3

Postby Skylax » Sat Jul 26, 2003 5:20 pm

Your guesses seem right to me.<br /><br />(1) Dative would rather mean "ransom to give to" the girl. LSJ says apoina is "frequent with gen. of the person ransomed". After all, it is the "price of" the girl.<br /><br />(2) "his" daughter, yes. Insufficient context. Furthermore, I don't think Apollo had got a daughter. Was he even married?<br /><br />Now the stemmata are "upon" the sceptre, it is "a wreath of wool wrapped round the staff in token of suppliantship", it says here :<br />http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3atext%3a1999%2e04%2e0056&query=commline%3d%2310<br />"Ana" + dative is not found in prose.<br /><br />Best regards,<br />Fernand
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Re:Pharr para. 88 lines 2-3

Postby Paul » Sat Jul 26, 2003 6:30 pm

Hi Bert,<br /><br />I would translate 88.2 roughly as follows:<br /><br />"For Chryses, priest of the free-shooter, is going to the swift ships of the Achaeans, and he brings boundless ransom for his daughter, whom the son of Atreus keeps in the camp."<br /><br />With regard to (1) use of genitive: a good question. I would hazard that this is a kind of causal genitive; cf Pharr 979.6, e.g., "he carries boundless ransom because of his daughter".<br /><br />I would translate 88.3 pretty much as you did. I think the sense is that the fillets or wreaths are affixed to or 'upon' the golden scepter. Hence the use of "ava".<br /><br />I think that <br />)Atrei/da ... kosmh/tore<br /><br />are accusatives in the dual number.<br /><br />Cordially,<br /><br />Paul
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Re:Pharr para. 88 lines 2-3

Postby annis » Sat Jul 26, 2003 8:03 pm

[quote author=Bert de Haan link=board=2;threadid=306;start=0#2004 date=1059231510]<br />-line3; [face=SPIonic]o( d' a)rhth\r e)/xei stemmata e(khbo/lou )Apo/llwnos e)n Xersi\n a)na\ Xruse/w| skh/ptrw| kai\ li/ssetai pa/ntaj )Axaiou/j, ma/lista d' )Atrei/da du/w kosmh/tore law=n.[/face]<br />I translated this as follows: "And the priest has the wreaths of the Free-Shooter Apollo in (his) hand along with(??) the golden sceptre, and he entreats all the Achaeans but especially the two sons of Atreus, the commanders of the people".<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Others have covered your other questions, but I want to point out one thing:<br /><br />"And this priest has..."<br /><br />Remember that in Homer, [face=SPIonic]o(, h(, to/[/face] are still demonstratives ("this; that") not yet "the."
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Re:Pharr para. 88 lines 2-3

Postby Bert » Sun Jul 27, 2003 12:47 am

Quote from:skylark<br />(1) Dative would rather mean "ransom to give to" the girl. LSJ says apoina is "frequent with gen. of the person ransomed". After all, it is the "price of" the girl.<br /><br /> I was thinking the dative as a dative of advantage, ransom for the benefit of the girl, ie. her release. Your explanation of the genitive though, makes perfect sence and so does Paul's.<br />These two views can easily live side by side.<br /><br />Quote from: Paul<br />"For Chryses, priest of the free-shooter, is going to the swift ships of the Achaeans,
<br /><br />Judging by how the story-line of the poem develops, going to the swift ships probably is correct (see Pharr parra. 90 note 16). It did surprise me though that -epi- would be used to say to. I seem to get into trouble with prepositions more often.<br />Maybe I can piggy-back another question on this one.<br />In line 11 if the Iliad, the preposition epi is between the adjective and the noun which is also the case in line 15 with ava.<br />Is this a common occurance?<br />When I got to line 11 I considered the possibility that swift is used as an adverb modifying the preceding verb (he went swiftly), but I don't think that is very likely, especially considering the same construction in line 15 without the possibility of it being an adverb <br />
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Re:Pharr para. 88 lines 2-3

Postby annis » Sun Jul 27, 2003 12:57 am

[quote author=Bert de Haan link=board=2;threadid=306;start=0#2017 date=1059266847]<br />Maybe I can piggy-back another question on this one.<br />In line 11 if the Iliad, the preposition epi is between the adjective and the noun which is also the case in line 15 with ava.<br />Is this a common occurance?<br />[/quote]<br /><br />In Greek poetry, yes; Homer does it quite often.<br /><br />While Latin prose loves this "adjective preposition noun" pattern, Greek prose does not. It is quite rare in Greek outside poetry.
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Re:Pharr para. 88 lines 2-3

Postby Paul » Sun Jul 27, 2003 1:37 am

Hi,<br /><br />Bert can I assume you meant line 12 and not line 11; specifically the adjective-preposition-noun sequence<br /><br />[face=SPIonic]<br />.. qoa\j e)pi\ nh=aj ..<br />[/face]<br /><br />in<br /><br />[face=SPIonic]<br />)Atrei/+dhj: o(\ ga\r h)=lqe qoa\j e)pi\ nh=aj )Axaiw=n<br />[/face]<br />?<br />I find it very helpful when translating to identify and then group words that are similarly inflected. In this case, both<br /><br />[face=SPIonic]<br /> qoa\j<br />[/face]<br />and<br /><br />[face=SPIonic]<br />nh=aj <br />[/face]<br /><br />are feminine accusative plural. This tells me that they likely belong together. So first I think 'swift ships' and only then do I add the preposition, 'to the swift ships'.<br /><br />Cordially,<br /><br />Paul<br />
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Re:Pharr para. 88 lines 2-3

Postby Bert » Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:40 am

It is line 12 indeed.<br /><br /><br />Thank you.
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