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duplicate adjectives

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duplicate adjectives

Postby mariek » Sat Jul 26, 2003 6:17 am

Gladium et pilum longum portat = He carries a sword and a long spear.<br /><br />Let's say both items are long. So I want to say :<br /> He carries a long sword and a long spear.<br />The logical way to phrase this in Latin seems to be :<br /> Gladium longum et pilum longum portat.<br /><br />Is there a way to phrase this in Latin so that the adjective longum is only used once? i.e. longum only appears once in the sentence?<br /><br />I effectively want to group the two nouns together and then apply the adjective once :<br /> (Gladium et pilum) longum<br /><br />I'm sorry if this is a stupid and trivial question.<br />
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Re:duplicate adjectives

Postby benissimus » Sat Jul 26, 2003 6:48 am

I may be wrong, but I think it's about the same as in English. There is that certain ambiguity if you say "He carries a long sword and spear." Are they both long or is just the sword long? It's not really clear, but either meaning could apply. When doing it in Latin, the adjective has to match the closest noun which it modifies, except in this case where they are the same.
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Re:duplicate adjectives

Postby mariek » Sat Jul 26, 2003 10:47 pm

<br />Let's change the scenario completely. Instead of two nouns and one adjective, let's say there is one noun and two adjectives.<br /><br />He carries a long sharp sword.<br /><br />Do you put both adjectives adjacent to each other?<br /> Gladium longum acutum portat.<br /><br />Or do you separate both adjectives by "et"?<br /> Gladium longum et acutum portat.<br /><br />Or do you repeat the noun again?<br /> Gladium longum gladium acutum portat.<br /><br />Or do you repeat the noun, plus add "et"?<br /> Gladium longum et gladium acutum portat.<br /><br /><br />
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Re:duplicate adjectives

Postby benissimus » Sat Jul 26, 2003 11:48 pm

I'm not sure about that one :-\ The correct formation would definitely be one of the first two, as either of the second would give the impression that "he" is carrying two different swords. I know for a fact that saying Gladium longum et acutum portat is correct, and I am about 80% sure that stacking adjectives is acceptable as well.
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Re:duplicate adjectives

Postby mariek » Sun Jul 27, 2003 5:23 am

Back to the first question (gladium longum et pilum longum portat). I had wanted to know whether I could rephrase this so that "longum" only appears once. How about this:<br /> Gladium pilumque longum portat.<br /><br />What do you assume when you read that?<br />Do you apply longum to the closest noun, pilum?<br />Or would you apply longum to both gladium and pilum?<br />
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Re:duplicate adjectives

Postby Episcopus » Sun Jul 27, 2003 8:49 pm

Gladium longum acutumque portat, that's what I'd write for 'he carry a long sharp sword'<br /><br />In my opinion 'et' is too much for sharp, long sword - they are too closely related...unless the author be wanting to slap some emphasis on 'acutum', in which case "gladium longum et acutum portat" <br />or 'acutum gladium longumque portat'<br /><br />sword and long spear carries he...gladium et pilum longum portat, I'd say...<br /><br />My 2 cents...
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Re:duplicate adjectives

Postby Magistra » Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:36 pm

If you're speaking about the Classical Empire period, the Roman infantrymen used a short sword (gladius). It was very convenient for close combat. They could insert it between the ribs of an opposing enemy with a quick upward motion. <br /><br />Therefore, in this sentence, I'd just put longum after pilum since a throwing spear was much longer than the gladius (which by definition is a short, thrusting sword).<br /><br />Magistra
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Re:duplicate adjectives

Postby mariek » Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:33 am

Oh, I didn't know that their swords (gladii) were short. I always thought that a short sword was more like a dagger.<br /><br />If I want to say:<br /> He carries a sharp sword and a sharp spear.<br /><br />I could phrase it in Latin this way:<br /> Gladium acutum et pilum acutum portat.<br /><br />Is it possible to phrase it this way?:<br /> Gladium pilumque acutum portat.<br />
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Re:duplicate adjectives

Postby benissimus » Mon Jul 28, 2003 3:09 am

I think it's a little redundant, so you can mix up the vocabulary a little bit by looking up other words to mean the same thing. A creative solution could be Gladium pilumque utrum acutum portat (He carries a gladius and a spear, either of which sharp).
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Re:duplicate adjectives

Postby mariek » Mon Jul 28, 2003 5:06 am

A creative solution could be Gladium pilumque utrum acutum portat (He carries a gladius and a spear, either of which sharp).
<br /><br />Ooooooooh, now you're getting really fancy on me.<br />
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