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Postby Timothy » Fri May 21, 2004 12:59 pm

I think I have it now.

Fatum, -i is agreeing in gender with Andromeda, so it is ablative singular.

Fata Andromedae...

I guess I was a bit too literal there.

OK, sorry for that.

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Postby Timothy » Fri May 21, 2004 1:30 pm

I'm not sure I've got this now.

from § 181 Ablative of Personal Agent.

Ablative of personal agent is used with the passive voice.

(passive voice) Monstrum a Perseo necatur.

(active voice) Perseus monstrum necat.

In the passive the object becomes the subject and the subject becomes the ablative of personal agent.

Using the sentence from § 193:

Fata Andromedae, puellae pulchrae, a toto populo deplorabantur, tamen nullium erat auxilium.

Here the ablative of personal agent is a toto populo. puella pulchrae is an appositive with Andromedae, leaving the object, Fata, as the subject.

So why is deplorabantur 3rd person, plural?

Using the first sentence in the active voice and changing the object from singular to plural:

Perseus monstros necat. Perseus kills the monsters.

Change to passive voice with ablative of personal agent:

Monstri a Perseo necantur.

Stripping the sentence from §193 down:

Fata Andromedae a toto populo deplorabantur.

I'm again stumped by the the number of the verb. It doesn't seem that it can simply agreeing with Andromeda, since it must be plural. The definition says the nomative plural of fatum is fati. So once again I'm led to the accusative plural of the neuter noun, fata.

I'm missing something here.

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Postby Timothy » Fri May 21, 2004 2:47 pm

Sigh, I think I tripped up on the dictionary definition of a neuter noun

The distinguishing case is the genitive singular, which is the second
form: fatum, -i.

So now fata is the nominative plural, which makes me feel better but
the plural still seems odd.

I don't like it when one word throws the whole sentence into chaos.

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§ 196 Errata

Postby Timothy » Sun May 23, 2004 7:34 pm

I.

5. Missing:
delevi, I have destroyed
paruit, he obeyed

7.3 dederatis
you have given
Should be: you had given.
(dedisti, dedistis, you have given)

8.2 Populum verba oraculi moverant.
The words of the oracle moved the people.
Should be: The words of the oracle had moved the people. (pluperfect)
(Populum verba oraculi moverunt, would be the perfect.)

10. Amici ab Andromeda discesserint.
(Her) friends have gone away from Andromeda.
Should be: (Her) friends shall have gone away from Andromeda.
(Amici ab Andromeda discesserunt, would be the perfect.)

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Postby benissimus » Mon May 24, 2004 5:24 am

Timothy, you seem to be honing your Latin very well through this :)
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Postby Timothy » Mon May 24, 2004 11:53 am

benissimus wrote:Timothy, you seem to be honing your Latin very well through this :)


Thanks! :D

I agree that it has been very helpful to my learning. I've been "playing" it very straight: I do the exercise, check against the key, resolve descrepancies (I'm in error nearly as often as the other way round) and post what is left over. Sometimes (see above) I go a bit astray. It's nice to know I can find my way back though! :lol:

I've only been at it for 2 months so it's still early. I intend to do the Collar and Daniell book next while I start the Second Year Latin. In a year I hope that I will have gotten far enough to really get into the texts. :D

But I do apprecietae all the help from you, Ingrid, et cetera.

I really do.

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§ 206 Errata

Postby Timothy » Sun May 30, 2004 10:38 pm

§ 206 The exercise asks for the three tenses of the active infinitive of the verbs.

laudo, laudare, laudavisse, laudaturus esse
moneo, monere, monuisse, moniturus esse
rego, regere, rexisse, recturus esse
capio, capere, captisse, capturus esse
audio, audire, audivisse, auditurus esse


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Re: § 206 Errata

Postby benissimus » Sun May 30, 2004 10:49 pm

Timothy wrote:§ 206 The exercise asks for the three tenses of the active infinitive of the verbs.

laudo, laudare, laudavisse, laudaturus esse
moneo, monere, monuisse, moniturus esse
rego, regere, rexisse, recturus esse
capio, capere, captisse, capturus esse
audio, audire, audivisse, auditurus esse


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Should the first person be included or is that just there for identification?
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Re: § 206 Errata

Postby Timothy » Sun May 30, 2004 11:52 pm

benissimus wrote:Should the first person be included or is that just there for identification?


Identification. I probably should have made that clear. Maybe dropped altogether, as it might confuse.

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Re: § 206 Errata

Postby ingrid70 » Mon May 31, 2004 8:01 pm

Timothy wrote:§ 206 The exercise asks for the three tenses of the active infinitive of the verbs.

Ah, well...so I've been lazy :).


capio, capere, captisse, capturus esse


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indicative perfect active should be cepisse.



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Re: § 206 Errata

Postby Timothy » Mon May 31, 2004 8:16 pm

ingrid70 wrote:
indicative perfect active should be cepisse.



Right!

Not lazy; never lazy.

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§ 218 The Faithless Tarpeia

Postby Timothy » Wed Jun 30, 2004 2:24 am

I don't know of a better way to post edits to a passage. Ideas are welcome.

My focus here is on the verb tenses. It seems to me that the difference between the perfect and imperfect gets a bit blurred.

1 Sabini olim cum Romanis bellum gerebant et multas victorias
2 reportaverant. Iam agros proximos muris vastabant, iam oppido
3 adpropinquabant. Romani autem in Capitolium fugerant et longe periculo
4 aberant. Muris validis et saxis altis credebant. Frustra Sabini tela
5 iaciebant, frustra portas duras petebant; castellum occupare non
6 poterant. Diende novum consilium ceperunt.
7
8 Tarpeia erat puella Romana pulchra et superba. Cotidie aquam
9 copiis Romanis in Capitolium portabat. Ei non nocebant Sabini,
10 quod ea sine armis erat neque Sabini bellum cum feminis liberisque
11 gerebant. Tarpeia autem maxime amabat ornamenta auri. Cotidie
12 Sabinorum ornamenta videbat et mox ea desiderare incipiebat. Ei
13 unus ex Sabinis dixit, "Duc copias Sabinas intra portas, Tarpeia,
14 et maxima erunt praemia tua"


My translation:

Once upon a time the Sabines were waging war with the Romans and had won many victories. They were already devastating the fields nearest the walls, now they were approaching the town. However the Romans had fled to the Capitol and were far away from danger. They were trusting in their strong walls and the high rocks. In vain the Sabines hurled their weapons, in vain they attacked the strong gates; they were not able to occupy the town. Then they made a new plan.

Tarpeia was a beautiful and proud Roman girl. Daily she had carried water to the Roman troops in the Capitol. The Sabines were not harming her because she was without weapons nor were the Sabines waging war with women and children. Now Tarpeia especially loved jewelry of gold. Daily she saw the jewelry of the Sabines and soon she began to long for them. One of the Sabines said to her, "Lead the Sabine troops within the gates and the greatest rewards will be yours."

Notes:
The key uses different word choice here and there. For example, "bolders" rather than "rock." In one of the texts here (for Cicero, I believe) there is a short discussion of the rocks by the Capitoline where criminals were thrown off as a means of punishment. From the description and the pictures I think these are steep, ragged, cliffs.

2: I haven't seen it anywhere but the phrasing Iam...iam seems like some sort of idiom. In any case, the repetition of just one phrase seems odd.

3: I didn't get the sense of "any" there.
4: Word choice of trust versus believe.
4-5: repetition of frustra seems odd to me. A note here is that the special vocabulary and the dictionary have different definitions for peto; however, both are correct.

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Re: § 218 The Faithless Tarpeia

Postby ingrid70 » Wed Jun 30, 2004 8:02 am

The word choice in the key is a bit free in this piece, I think. I checked my own notes, they were more like yours, with these notes:

they were not able to occupy the town: castellum means fort/redoubt. They had already taken part of the town, the Romans held the Capitol only.

Daily she had carried water to the Roman troops in the Capitol. -> portabat is imperfect, not pluperfect.

Check the dictionary for peto, and you will see why the vocab entries are different. Peto is one of these words that can mean almost anything :).

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Re: § 218 The Faithless Tarpeia

Postby Timothy » Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:21 pm

ingrid70 wrote:they were not able to occupy the town: castellum means fort/redoubt. They had already taken part of the town, the Romans held the Capitol only.


yep. I think one of the meanings is also castle. IIRC, the Sabine wars were in the period of the roman kings. I'm not sure if the are of the Capitoline was considered the king's castle at that point. Anyway, I agree fort is the proper meaning.

ingrid70 wrote:Daily she had carried water to the Roman troops in the Capitol. -> portabat is imperfect, not pluperfect.


Right! So I read that now as simply "carried."

ingrid70 wrote:Check the dictionary for peto, and you will see why the vocab entries are different. Peto is one of these words that can mean almost anything :).


When I looked it up in my ELD I got both meanings. Just now I looked it up on Perseus and got similar results. :?: what does the Trop. [as opposed to Lit(ertature)] subheading in the entry mean?

Yeah, a general word to be sure.

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§ 239 I Latin - English

Postby Timothy » Sun Jul 11, 2004 12:14 am

After section § 237 there are no Latin - English translations. So, with the help from the ever interepid Ingrid ;), we may just be able to get these done before too long.

We're breaking new ground here!

Any mistakes here are mine. 8) Here we go!

§ 239 I Latin - English

1 Barbari ubi Romam ceperunt, maxima regum opera deleverunt.
When the savages had seized Rome, the great works of the kings they destroyed.
When the savages had seized Rome they destroyed the great works of the kings.

2 Romani multas calamites a barbaris acceperunt.
The Romans had received many defeats from the savages.

3 Ubi erat summus terror apud oppidanos, animi dubii eorum ab oratore claro confirmati sunt.
When there was the greatest terror among the townspeople, the doubtful sprit of theirs by a famous orator was strengthened
When the terror among the townspeople was the greatest their spirits were strengthened by a famous orator.


4 Roma est in ripis fluminis magni.
Rome is on a bank of a great river.

5 Ubi Caesar imperator milities suos arma capere iuissit, ii a proelio contineri non potuerunt.
When general Caesar ordered the troops to take their arms, they could not be restrained (kept) from battle.

6 Ubi proelium factum est, imperator reperiri non potuit.
When the battle was fought the general was not able to be found.
When the battle was fought it was not possible to find the general.


7 Imperator saggita in capite vulneratus erat et stare non poterat
The general by an arrow to the head had been wounded and could not stand.
The general had been wounded by an arrow to the head and wasn't able to stand. (Fooey! He was drunk!)


8 Eum magno labore pedes ex proelio portavit.
Him by great labor a soldier from the battle had carried.
A soldier carried him from the battle with great effort.


9 Is bracchis suis imperatorem tenuit et eum ex periculis summis servavit.
He held the general with his arms and he from the greatest dangers rescued.
He held the general with his arms and rescued him from the greatest dangers.


10 Virtute sua bonus miles ab imperatore coronam accepit.
For his courage the good soldier from the general a crown received.
For his courage the good soldier received a crown from the general.
[/i]

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Re: § 239 I Latin - English

Postby ingrid70 » Sun Jul 11, 2004 8:21 pm

Timothy wrote:
Any mistakes here are mine. 8) Here we go!

§ 239 I Latin - English

1 Barbari ubi Romam ceperunt, maxima regum opera deleverunt.
When the savages had seized Rome, the great works of the kings they destroyed.
When the savages had seized Rome they destroyed the great works of the kings.



tenses, tenses. ceperunt: perfect, not pluperfect. And the works are greater than great, they are the greatest!


3 Ubi erat summus terror apud oppidanos, animi dubii eorum ab oratore claro confirmati sunt.
When there was the greatest terror among the townspeople, the doubtful sprit of theirs by a famous orator was strengthened
When the terror among the townspeople was the greatest their spirits were strengthened by a famous orator.




You've got doubtful in your word-for-word translation, but omitted it in the other one.


6 Ubi proelium factum est, imperator reperiri non potuit.
When the battle was fought the general was not able to be found.
When the battle was fought it was not possible to find the general.




I had: the general could not be found.

So far my notes. Of course, any mistakes in them are entirely my own :).

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Re: § 239 I Latin - English

Postby Timothy » Sun Jul 11, 2004 9:35 pm

Thanks!

Tenses are still a weak point. :(

So now I have:

"When the savages seized Rome they destroyed the greatest works of the kings."

and

"When the terror among the townspeople was the greatest their doubtful spirits were strengthened by a famous orator."

and

"When the battle was fought the general could not be found."

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