Oblique Optative (was: New Member)

[Ptolemaios]

I thought it would be a good idea to start a new thread on this subject, instead of continuing the other topic in a new direction.<br /><br />If I remember correctly, three questions need to be answered.<br /><br />First, if there are textkit grammars that discuss this topic. Goodwin's Syntax of the Greek moods and tenses is a very valuable resource. The only problem is that he doesn't use the term 'oblique optative', although he does describe this phenomenon. The biggest problem with these older grammars is that their descriptions are based on the sentence. Modern approaches try to describe grammar on a larger scale, the narrative as a whole.<br /><br />The other question was about the time one should introduce students to the oblique optative. In my opinion, as soon as one starts to read 'real' Greek, instead of composed textbook Greek, one should know about this use of the optative. Xenophon, often read early in the curriculum, uses it very often.<br /><br />Third and last, I do think the oblique optative is connected to aesthetics. Mansella, could you explain what you meant by concepts of creative process?<br /><br />Ptolemaios

[Emma_85]

at school we learned about he oblique optative at the same that we also learned what the other functions of the optative are. <br />it's annoying when you learn things 'in bits', i think. even if you don't really come across the oblique optative a lot at first, it helps if you learn everything at once. <br /><br />we haven't talked about this approach to discribe an oblique optative in conection to the rest of the text or as a form chosen because of its aesthetics. so i'll follow this post with great interest... hope to learn something new

[Mansella]

[quote author=Ptolemaios link=board=2;threadid=288;start=0#1822 date=1058907885]<br />Third and last, I do think the oblique optative is connected to aesthetics. Mansella, could you explain what you meant by concepts of creative process?<br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />Since the oblique optative is an aesthetic choice, I shall elaborate. What I was referring to is that when an author makes a choice, there is a reason. On a simplistic level, this could be an aesthetic descision to use rhythm and the linguistics demonstrate this rhythm, or to rhetorically highlight a specific thought. Other reasons vary from conscious/ subconscious influence to linguistic representations of ontological schemas. Put simply, the creative process is the methodology a writer uses to manifest thought in a particular way and his reasons for doing so. Sometimes the methodology is connected to history, culture, and even ethnographical ontology.

[Ptolemaios]

Especially the ontological schema's draw my attention. Where could I find some more on this subject?<br /><br /> Eu)/xomai se e)/rrwsqai <br /><br />Ptolemaios

[Mansella]

For example, linguistically we express being by "I am" in English. This implications of expressing existence in this way is that it is abstract and consequently justifies identity (or mind) as non-material, non-spatial. The ontology will always manifest in language. Much of this comes out of theory of mind, but there are other areas of philosophy that have discussed this. My research is only concerned with linguistic representations of space in conjunction with the creative process.

[annis]

I'm a grammar fiend, and I'm still not quite sure what an oblique optative is. Could you give an example of this usage that distinguishes it from some other optative?<br /><br />[face=SPIonic]eu)tuxei=te[/face]

[Mansella]

Good idea. Ptolemaios, can I see an example in English (if it is possible) so I can articulate the concept more efficiently?<br /><br /><br /><br />

[Ptolemaios]

An example from Goodwin, Syntax of the Greek moods and tenses (paragr. 317), quoting Soph., OT 71:<br /> e)/pemya w(j pu/qoito <br />In English: I send, so that he would know.<br /><br />Had the tense been present, it would have been:<br /> pe/mpw w/j pu/qhtai <br /><br />Of course, this is only one example from only one type of clause; mostly the oblique optative is found in indirect discourse (Goodwin paragr. 254 sqq.)<br /><br /> Eu)/xomai u(mas e)/rrwsqai <br /><br />Ptolemaios