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Matthew 2:20

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Matthew 2:20

Postby Kasper » Thu Apr 22, 2004 4:48 am

I'm a bit confused by the verb (I hate this verb :evil: ) here:

teqnh/kasin ga\r zhtou~ntes th\n yuxh\n tou~ paidi/ou

have the jealous/envious killed the spirit of the child? it seems odd, yet to say they have been killed by the spirit of the child makes even less sense, both in the story and grammatically.
please help!
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
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Re: Matthew 2:20

Postby mingshey » Thu Apr 22, 2004 7:28 am

Kasper wrote:I'm a bit confused by the verb (I hate this verb :evil: ) here:

[face=SPIonic]teqnh/kasin ga\r zhtou=ntej th\n yuxh\n tou= paidi/ou[/face]

have the jealous/envious killed the spirit of the child? it seems odd, yet to say they have been killed by the spirit of the child makes even less sense, both in the story and grammatically.
please help!


Old timers used "spirit" as we say "life' or just "breath". And they did not sharply distinguished between "breath", "life", "spirit", and "ghost".

And the quote:
[face=SPIonic]teqnh/kasin[/face] : dead, 3rd pl ind act
[face=SPIonic]oi( zhtou=ntej[/face] : those who were searching. pres. act. part. masc. pl.
[face=SPIonic]th\n yuxh\n tou= paidi/ou[/face] : the life of the child, fem. acc. pl.

adds up to:

those who were searching for the life of the child are dead
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Re: Matthew 2:20

Postby klewlis » Thu Apr 22, 2004 2:44 pm

mingshey wrote:[face=SPIonic]teqnh/kasin[/face] : dead, 3rd pl ind act


I'm not sure how you are translating a verb as an adjective... but this is actually a perfect active indicative of [face=SPIonic]qnhskw[/face] and so "the ones seeking the life of the child have died". It means practically the same thing but I don't want anyone to get mixed up about the form. :)
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Re: Matthew 2:20

Postby Paul » Thu Apr 22, 2004 6:17 pm

klewlis wrote:I'm not sure how you are translating a verb as an adjective... but this is actually a perfect active indicative of [face=SPIonic]qnhskw[/face] and so "the ones seeking the life of the child have died". It means practically the same thing but I don't want anyone to get mixed up about the form. :)


Hi,

I'm pretty sure mingshey has it right. In its perfect forms this verb means "be dead". It's a 'stative' perspective of death.

Cordially,

Paul
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Re: Matthew 2:20

Postby klewlis » Thu Apr 22, 2004 7:01 pm

Paul wrote:
klewlis wrote:I'm not sure how you are translating a verb as an adjective... but this is actually a perfect active indicative of [face=SPIonic]qnhskw[/face] and so "the ones seeking the life of the child have died". It means practically the same thing but I don't want anyone to get mixed up about the form. :)


Hi,

I'm pretty sure mingshey has it right. In its perfect forms this verb means "be dead". It's a 'stative' perspective of death.

Cordially,

Paul


Do you have a reference for that?
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Re: Matthew 2:20

Postby Paul » Thu Apr 22, 2004 7:59 pm

klewlis wrote:Do you have a reference for that?


Sure. Middle Liddell - "...in pres. and impf to die, be dying, in aor. 2 and pf. to be dead.."

Cordially,

Paul
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Re: Matthew 2:20

Postby klewlis » Thu Apr 22, 2004 8:11 pm

Paul wrote:
klewlis wrote:Do you have a reference for that?


Sure. Middle Liddell - "...in pres. and impf to die, be dying, in aor. 2 and pf. to be dead.."

Cordially,

Paul


!
funky. i will have to check bauer later and see if he includes that.
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Postby Kasper » Thu Apr 22, 2004 10:41 pm

Thanks a lot guys! Not sure where I got the 'envious' bit from...
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
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Postby mingshey » Fri Apr 23, 2004 1:40 am

kelwlis:
I had to put "be" before "dead". I was not very careful, indeed.
Alternatively, you could put it as "have died", which is not very english as I know of.

Kasper:
you might had a version in which the "[face=SPIonic]oi([/face]" was missing. It could make you hesitate to interprete the participle as "those who were ...ing". But then again, without "[face=SPIonic]oi([/face]" it could be translated:
They are dead (while) searching for the life of the child.
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Postby klewlis » Fri Apr 23, 2004 3:27 am

mingshey wrote:kelwlis:
I had to put "be" before "dead". I was not very careful, indeed.
Alternatively, you could put it as "have died", which is not very english as I know of.


Actually there's nothing wrong with "have died" in english--"they are dead" could mean anything--that they died 50 years ago or 5 minutes ago. But "they have died" implies more of a "since x, they have died". In our particular case that could be "since you left the land, the people searching for the child have died...". Does that make sense?
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Postby Skylax » Mon May 31, 2004 4:26 pm

klewlis wrote: In our particular case that could be "since you left the land, the people searching for the child have died...". Does that make sense?


Yes, but using of the perfect [face=SPIonic]teqnh/kasin[/face] implies "NOW you can safely get back home". The perfect indicates that the past action expressed has yet an effect on the present situation.

The aorist [face=SPIonic]a)pe/qanon[/face] would have only told the story : "they died". So, for example, Joseph could have thought that it was a well deserved punishment, without implying anything in relationship with his present situation.
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Postby Democritus » Mon May 31, 2004 9:51 pm

klewlis wrote:Actually there's nothing wrong with "have died" in english--"they are dead" could mean anything--that they died 50 years ago or 5 minutes ago. But "they have died" implies more of a "since x, they have died". In our particular case that could be "since you left the land, the people searching for the child have died...". Does that make sense?


Differences between "is dead" and "has died"... well.....

I suppose a determined hair-splitter might take a rock as an example, and point out that "this rock is dead," but "this rock hasn't died." But this scenario only applies to objects which are intrinsically not alive. And there aren't a whole lot of scenarios where we might feel compelled to make the bold assertion that "hey, this rock hasn't died."

There are several famous dieties who reportedly died and came back to life, which means "they have died" but "they are not dead." But these are exceptional cases.

In ordinary cases (not rocks, not dieties) I'm not sure the distinction between the two is useful. Death is both permanent and the unambiguous. Either you are dead or you are not dead (there's not much room for in-between) and once you are dead, that's it, you aren't coming back.

If a person is dead, then it's clear that he has died.

I can think of some contexts where I would prefer "has died" over "is dead," but the shade of difference is trifling. It seems to me that the choice of using one or the other depends on the overall construction of the English sentences, and not on the underlying assertion.

We could try translating the other way around. Imagine St. Mathew is translating an episode of Star Trek into koine Greek. When the evil aliens aim their phasers at a hapless red-shirted security guard, and then Dr. McCoy informs the captain, "He's dead, Jim," how would St. Matthew render that in ancient Greek? [face=SPIonic] qa/natoj e)sti/ [/face] or [face=SPIonic] te/qnhke [/face] ? Or maybe [face=SPIonic] e)/qane [/face] ?

If St. Matthew is a purist, he might insist on using an adjective, since the English original has an adjective. But then again, would a speaker of ancient Greek really say it that way?

I'm not sure how to translate this properly into Greek, but don't bother telling me that Dr. McCoy should have said, "He has died, Jim." I'm not buying that. :)
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Postby klewlis » Mon May 31, 2004 10:13 pm

I didn't say that we have to use "has died", only that it is not improper english. ;)
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Postby Bert » Tue Jun 01, 2004 3:16 am

The English language does not have as clearly defined aspects as Greek does.
The difference between -is dead- and -has died- seems trivial in English (though there is a difference), but in an attempt to translate the different aspects of Greek into English, this is a valid distinction.
The perfect tense in Greek indicates that there is a significance for the present.
The aorist just states a fact without elaborating on its significance.
The context may give more information, but the verb itself does not.
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Postby Democritus » Tue Jun 01, 2004 7:34 pm

Well, my opinion is, [face=SPIonic]te/qnhke[/face] can be properly translated as either "is dead" or "has died." I think that both of them are good renderings of the Greek perfect tense. I can't tell if you folks completely agree, but either way I guess it's not worth quibbling over. :)

This topic reminds me of the Monty Python dead parrot sketch:

It’s passed on! This parrot is no more! It has ceased to be! It’s expired and gone up to meet it’s maker! This is a late parrot! It’s a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! If you hadn’t nailed it to the perch, it would be pushing up the daisies! It’s brought down the curtain, and joined the choir invisible! This is an ex-parrot!!
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Postby Bert » Wed Jun 02, 2004 12:38 am

Democritus wrote:Well, my opinion is, [face=SPIonic]te/qnhke[/face] can be properly translated as either "is dead" or "has died." I think that both of them are good renderings of the Greek perfect tense. I can't tell if you folks completely agree, but either way I guess it's not worth quibbling over. :)

This topic reminds me of the Monty Python dead parrot sketch:

It’s passed on! This parrot is no more! It has ceased to be! It’s expired and gone up to meet it’s maker! This is a late parrot! It’s a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! If you hadn’t nailed it to the perch, it would be pushing up the daisies! It’s brought down the curtain, and joined the choir invisible! This is an ex-parrot!!

Perfect.
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Postby Kasper » Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:13 am

I thought it was only sleeping... :(
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
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