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Re:Word Order

Postby Milito » Wed Jul 16, 2003 5:53 pm

'Magistra' is indeed a feminine noun - it means "teacher", among other things. Good guess on the masculine form.... unfortunately, it's one of the exceptions to the second declension rule, so the masculine is actually 'Magister'. <br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:Word Order

Postby Episcopus » Thu Jul 17, 2003 3:07 pm

mariek, watch out for those 2nd declension -er nouns.<br /><br />Some adjectives are like that also<br /><br />eg. miser, misera, miserum. <br /><br />Some nouns drop the 'e' <br /><br />ager, field m<br /><br />ager, agri, agro, agrum, agro<br /><br /><br />Has anyone noticed that team in the tour de France? <br /><br />Credit Agricole?
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Re:Word Order

Postby mariek » Thu Jul 17, 2003 6:47 pm

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=229;start=30#1492 date=1058454444]<br />mariek, watch out for those 2nd declension -er nouns.[/quote]<br /><br />I haven't gotten there yet, but I did take a peek ahead and noticed different declensions for "puer" and "ager". <br /><br />Well, it's definitely getting interesting with the 2nd declension nouns ... it's not one formula fits all!<br />
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Re:Word Order

Postby Episcopus » Thu Jul 17, 2003 7:20 pm

yeah but those -er nouns are the only variations. <br /><br />wait until 3rd ! ah....
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Re:Word Order

Postby mariek » Thu Jul 17, 2003 7:45 pm

You're way ahead of me !!
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Re:Word Order

Postby Milito » Fri Jul 18, 2003 2:11 pm

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=229;start=30#1516 date=1058467670]<br /><br />I haven't gotten there yet, but I did take a peek ahead and noticed different declensions for "puer" and "ager". <br /><br />Well, it's definitely getting interesting with the 2nd declension nouns ... it's not one formula fits all!<br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />Actually, there's a pretty good trick for sorting out which ones lose the 'e' and which don't, for which we can thank English's habit of absorbing all other languages with which it has extended contact...... Look for an English word that is related to the Latin one, and see what it does. For example, ager = field, and English has agriculture. The 'ager' drops its middle "e". Adjectives can behave the same way - for example, 'liber' = free, and we have 'liberate', with the "e" in the middle. Keep the "e" in the middle when dealing with that adjective. (But watch out for 'liber' = book, which does lose the "e", as "library" tells you......)<br /><br />The difficulty comes when there isn't an English word you can use as a memory jog, or when the English word isn't in use a whole lot anymore... have you used "pulchritudinous" lately? (Latin adjective "Pulcher"....)<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:Word Order

Postby Episcopus » Fri Jul 18, 2003 2:40 pm

pulchritudinous = trucking awesome!
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Re:Word Order

Postby Episcopus » Fri Jul 18, 2003 2:43 pm

and pulchritude = beauty, n.
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Re:Word Order

Postby Milito » Fri Jul 18, 2003 3:16 pm

Yes, but have you actually USED them lately? I mean, wander up to someone you know a little bit and say "My, but you're looking pulchritudinous today!" ;D<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:Word Order

Postby mariek » Fri Jul 18, 2003 3:57 pm

[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=229;start=45#1557 date=1058537519]<br />Actually, there's a pretty good trick for sorting out which ones lose the 'e' and which don't<br />...<br />The difficulty comes when there isn't an English word you can use as a memory jog, or when the English word isn't in use a whole lot anymore... have you used "pulchritudinous" lately?[/quote]<br /><br />Hey, I like that trick ! I think it will be more evident to me as I learn and use more vocabulary.<br /><br />Is there a list somewhere with all these neat "tricks"?<br /><br />Pulchritudinous. Lessee.... nope, can't remember the last time I used it. I must admit I even had to look it up in the dictionary. I'm quite limited in my use of sesquipedalian words.<br /><br />
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Re:Word Order

Postby mariek » Fri Jul 18, 2003 4:00 pm

[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=229;start=45#1565 date=1058541390]<br />Yes, but have you actually USED them lately? I mean, wander up to someone you know a little bit and say "My, but you're looking pulchritudinous today!" ;D [/quote]<br /><br />LOL! Maybe we should file that under unsuccessful "pick up" lines... :)<br /><br />
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Re:Word Order

Postby bingley » Fri Jul 18, 2003 4:09 pm

sesquipedalian<br /><br />from<br /><br />http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aentry%3D%2343995<br /><br />sesqui-pedalis , e, adj. <br /><br />I. Of a foot and a half; one foot and a half in length, breadth, or diameter<br /><br /> 8) ;)
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Re:Word Order

Postby Episcopus » Fri Jul 18, 2003 4:25 pm

[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=229;start=45#1565 date=1058541390]<br />Yes, but have you actually USED them lately? <br />[/quote]<br /><br />CALM DOWN :o<br /><br />
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Re:Word Order

Postby benissimus » Fri Jul 18, 2003 9:47 pm

Haha! Now you'll come crawling back to Wheelock, with its English descendants of Latin words :P<br /><br />I, myself, am more interesting in English cognates (words that are related to Latin words by common ancestry). Such as L. ager and Eng. acre... L. mare and Eng. mere (a type of lake).
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Re:Word Order

Postby mariek » Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:44 pm

Beniss wrote:<br /> Of shoes and ships, of ceiling wax, of cabbages and kings! <br /><br />Milto wrote:<br /> "Calceorum et navium, cerae sigillorum et regum!"<br /><br />Magistra wrote:<br /> brassicarum<br /><br />So since none of these end with a short syllable, that means we can't use the -que ending on the last word. Right?<br /><br />But what would be the best way to put these five words together?<br /><br /> Regum et navium, calceorum et brassicarum et cerae sigillorum.<br /><br />That's going from shortest word to longest word, which was suggested.<br /><br />
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Re:Word Order

Postby mariek » Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:45 pm

Now that I've started learning Latin, I really love it when I stumble upon an English word that resembles a Latin word. Very exciting indeed!<br />
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Re:Word Order

Postby Episcopus » Sat Jul 19, 2003 12:01 pm

quibus?
Last edited by Episcopus on Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re:Word Order

Postby Milito » Mon Jul 21, 2003 3:45 pm

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=229;start=45#1591 date=1058564821]<br />Haha! Now you'll come crawling back to Wheelock, with its English descendants of Latin words :P<br />[/quote]<br />Hey, it was Wheelock that taught me the trick! ;)<br />[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=229;start=45#1591 date=1058564821]<br />I, myself, am more interesting in English cognates (words that are related to Latin words by common ancestry). Such as L. ager and Eng. acre... L. mare and Eng. mere (a type of lake).<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Frankly, I just plain like word origins period...... The ones that came direct from Latin, the ones that came direct from Anglo-Saxon..... The ones that came direct from French....... It's just really interesting to see how a word got to where it is, and where it started. And which one's we're using frequently, and which ones we've sort of left behind at the side of the road like so much verbal rubbish...... (Like 'pulchritudinous'.... ;D)<br /><br />Knowing more about the words themselves just makes the language so much richer, somehow.....<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:Word Order

Postby Episcopus » Mon Jul 21, 2003 6:11 pm

Agreed - a glorious feeling is it to know the meaning of a blatantly Latin yet frequently used English word while others know not!
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Re:Word Order

Postby benissimus » Mon Jul 21, 2003 11:58 pm

[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=229;start=45#1722 date=1058802302]<br /><br />Frankly, I just plain like word origins period...... The ones that came direct from Latin, the ones that came direct from Anglo-Saxon..... The ones that came direct from French....... It's just really interesting to see how a word got to where it is, and where it started. And which one's we're using frequently, and which ones we've sort of left behind at the side of the road like so much verbal rubbish...... (Like 'pulchritudinous'.... ;D)<br /><br />Knowing more about the words themselves just makes the language so much richer, somehow.....<br /><br />Kilmeny<br />[/quote]<br /><br />I concur 100%. I am constantly looking up words - words that I don't know and words that I do - just for their etymology. People think I'm odd when I look up words like "frog" or "is", because they don't know how wonderful a dictionary can be ::). The funny thing is, when I look up a word I don't know, I usually just go straight to the etymology and forget the definition immediately. <br /><br />I've only been interested in the subject for a little under a year and already I have about 8 books on word origins and I also use them in conjunction with my English and Latin dictionaries and textbooks. I don't seem to have the time to read lately :(<br />
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Re:Word Order

Postby mariek » Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:40 am

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=229;start=45#1746 date=1058831885]I concur 100%. I am constantly looking up words - words that I don't know and words that I do - just for their etymology. People think I'm odd when I look up words like "frog" or "is", because they don't know how wonderful a dictionary can be ::). The funny thing is, when I look up a word I don't know, I usually just go straight to the etymology and forget the definition immediately.[/quote]<br /><br />Yes, we all know you're a bit odd... ;)<br /><br />I used to look at the etymology part of a word definition just to see where it came from but it didn't have as much meaning to me as it does now, now that I am learning some Latin words.<br /><br />
I've only been interested in the subject for a little under a year and already I have about 8 books on word origins and I also use them in conjunction with my English and Latin dictionaries and textbooks. I don't seem to have the time to read lately :(
<br /><br />Eight books on word origins??<br /><br />I'm curious to know which English dictionary you use.<br /><br />I have a 2-volume "short" edition of the Oxford English Dictionary, I think it's usually referred to as NSOED. But it's big and cumbersome to use. So I usually go for the Webster Unabridged. And for quick lookups online, it's http://www.dictionary.com<br /><br /><br />
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Re:Word Order

Postby Milito » Tue Jul 22, 2003 2:18 pm

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=229;start=45#1746 date=1058831885]<br /><br />I've only been interested in the subject for a little under a year and already I have about 8 books on word origins and I also use them in conjunction with my English and Latin dictionaries and textbooks. I don't seem to have the time to read lately :(<br />[/quote]<br /><br />I know the feeling......... I grabbed the book that Seba mentioned, about how the texts we have got to us, and managed to start it, but just haven't had time to get more than into the first chapter..... :( However, since it's around, I'll be able (I hope!) to get to it eventually!<br /><br />So what are your books on word origins? (Says the word-phile, seeing an opportunity to increase the size of the home library, possibly to the point of causing the upstairs to fall through the floor to the downstairs......)<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:Word Order

Postby bingley » Tue Jul 22, 2003 2:41 pm

I'd highly recommend Eric Partridge's Origins. I lent it to my father and haven't seen it since :'(.<br /><br />Recommended websites:<br /><br />http://www.wordorigins.org/index.htm<br />http://www.worldwidewords.org/<br />http://wordsmith.org/board/wwwthreads.pl?Cat=
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Re:Word Order

Postby Milito » Tue Jul 22, 2003 2:53 pm

Much thanks! I hear the floor joists groaning in protest already!<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:Word Order

Postby mariek » Tue Jul 22, 2003 6:12 pm

<br />Looks like Origins by Eric Partridge is out of print. :( Perhaps they'll reprint it. Or I'll have to rummage through used bookstores...<br /><br />Thanks for the links, I've just bookmarked them. I was just looking at the "Lorem Ipsum..." entry on the Wordorgiins.org site, very interesting, I never knew that! <br />
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Re:Word Order

Postby benissimus » Wed Jul 23, 2003 4:09 am

Well, since you're all so interested... :P<br /><br />My favorite dictionary is the American Heritage Dictionary: Fourth Edition (the same one that http://www.dictionary.com lists the first definitions with). I like it because it gives you enough information with Greek and Latin words to know how to conjugate/decline (if you have already learnt the patterns), and it also shows the currently known Indo-European roots. There is also an Indo-European dictionary in the back which is interesting to me.<br />The best part about it is that it goes into great detail in quite a few entries on Word History, Synonyms, and Proper Usage.<br /><br />As for my etymology/language books, I possess:<br />Wheelock's Latin 6th Edition Frederick M. Wheelock<br />*My main, but almost completed textbook.<br />445 Fascinating Word Origins Webb Garrison<br />*This book tells you the stories behind words, but quite often and frustratingly leaves out the actual original words.<br />Latin Can Be Fun George Capellanus<br />*An excellent source for Latin phrases and colloquialisms, written by a guy with a nice last name.<br />Dictionary of Latin and Greek Origins Bob and Maxine Moore<br />*A good book. Not so much etymology as it is telling you the original word and related words (a good memory aid).<br />Latin Quips at Your Fingertips Rose Williams<br />*A cute collection of Latin anecdotes, epigrams, and witty quotes with translation. Translations are a bit off in some cases, but you don't need a whole lot of fluency to realize the correct meaning.<br />Oxford Latin Course: Part 1 Maurice Balme & James Morwood<br />*An easy reader, mainly focusing on the childhood of the poet Horace with some exercises in the back. Now that I think of it, to those of you who are learning independently, I would recommend picking up a reader of some sort. Most of them are very simple and can be done by the equivalent of a 1 year Latin student or less.<br />Latin Crosswords Peter Jones & David Dare-Plumpton<br />*Nice way to learn vocabulary. Some of the games are so hard though that I get deprived of learning the new words!<br />Teach Yourself Ancient Greek Gavin Betts & Alan Henry<br />*Very fast-paced Greek text. I don't plan on learning Greek from it, but it serves as my only Greek book currently.<br />Latin for Americans Ullman, Henry, and Anderson<br />*Old book my teacher gave me as a present when I was tutoring someone. I have 2 different versions, both from the 60's. They are supposedly better than most modern texts, though very boring to those who aren't total grammarians.<br />Latin for the Illiterati Jon R. Stone<br />*A vast compilation of Latin terms and sayings. Translations are open to opinion (it tends to be fairly liberal for the sake of idiomatical structure). It includes a variety of topics ranging from "Insults" to "Animals" to "Love".<br />Forgotten English Jeffrey Kacirk<br />*All those lovely archaic words that you (or maybe just I) love to stumble across in the dictionary ;). Also offers accepted variants and stories behind the meanings.<br />The Queen's English Andy Swapp<br />*Those quirky British phrases and words that confuse the heck out of everyone else.<br />Cockney Rhyming Slang Gwyn Headley<br />*All right, Cockney isn't exactly a language ::), it's a fun read though.<br />Ecce! Romani! I used to have this textbook but had to return it.<br />*A reader/textbook hybrid of reasonable difficulty.<br /><br />How about you guys? What resources do you use (other than on-line)?
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Re:Word Order

Postby mariek » Wed Jul 23, 2003 5:09 am

Thank you for taking the time to enumerate your collection. You are quite the logophile!<br /><br />I've seen the Latin for the Illiterati book, and also the other one, More Latin for the Illiterati at my local bookstore. They both look like must-haves, however I don't see myself picking them up until I've become a bit more advanced.<br /><br />
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Re:Word Order

Postby bingley » Wed Jul 23, 2003 5:47 am

The 4th edition of the AHD, complete with etymologies and Indo-European and Proto-Semitic appendices can be found online here: <br />http://www.bartleby.com/61/
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Re:Word Order

Postby benissimus » Wed Jul 23, 2003 6:01 am

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=229;start=60#1855 date=1058936985]<br />They both look like must-haves, however I don't see myself picking them up until I've become a bit more advanced.<br /><br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />Hahaha! Read the title again silly.
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Re:Word Order

Postby mariek » Wed Jul 23, 2003 6:37 pm

Oh! Latin for the Illiterate. I thought it was a book with lots of useful Latin phrases that sorta doubles as a helpful vocabulary builder.
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