Textkit Logo

Correct translation of Titus 2,13 ?

Are you learning New Testament Greek with Mounce's Basics of Biblical Greek? Here's where you can meet other learners using this textbook. Use this board to ask questions and post your work for feedback. Use this forum too to discuss all things Koine, LXX & New Testament Greek including grammar, syntax, textbook talk and more.

Correct translation of Titus 2,13 ?

Postby muminustrollus » Mon May 17, 2004 10:38 am

Titus 2,13:

Looking for our blessed hope, the manifestation of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Or (to avoid any trinitarian misunderstanding)

Looking for our blessed hope: the manifestation of Jesus Christ, the glory of our great God and Savior.

The great God and savior is the Father. In the same epistle and chapter, verse 1O describes God as savior:

Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

Verse 11 confirms that God saves:

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men...

So why would Paul suddenly change his line of thinking and call Jesus Christ "great God and Savior" in verse 13 ? That is not plausible !

Jesus is the manifestation of the glory of God. Elsewhere (Col 1,27) Paul describes Jesus as the hope of glory. And in 2 Cor 4, 4 Paul speaks of the
"light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God".
phpbb
muminustrollus
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 8:48 am
Location: Peking

Postby JauneFlammee » Fri May 21, 2004 9:44 pm

No comments on vs 13 but vs 11 is wrong:

vs 11.

rather than
'Grace has ..appeared to all men'
it should be
The Grace of God has appeared, which is salvation to all men

(or 'bringeth salvation to all men', or 'for salvation for all men')

I know the NIV mistranslates this passage, all other major translations (NASB,RSV etc..) translate it more along what I have said, which is correct.
JauneFlammee
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2003 4:32 pm

Postby klewlis » Sun May 23, 2004 4:37 pm

This is more a question of theology than syntax... it may be helpful to check out a few commentaries and see what they have to say about the translations and exegesis.

In order to accept that particular translation I don't think it's necessary to say that Paul changed his whole line of thinking. He very often liked to draw parallels in his theology from Jesus to God and back again... a large part of his purpose was to demonstrate Jesus' identification with God, so it was quite common for him to cross-attribute characteristics that were traditionally thought of as belonging to God.
User avatar
klewlis
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 1567
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2003 1:48 pm
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Postby Ray » Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:31 pm

klewlis wrote:it was quite common for him to cross-attribute characteristics that were traditionally thought of as belonging to God.
I find it unlikely he would give an attribute that is traditionally associated with God to a man who he did not feel was God himself.

This is my first post here. :)
I have been browsing the site for a couple of days and you guys seem pretty nice.
I am no greek scholar but from what I looked at in the passage it seemed to me that people could interpret it two seperate ways.

1.That That the "Great God" and "Jesus Christ" are seperate beings.

2.Or that the "Great God" is also "our Savior Jesus Christ"

I don't think we can truly translate this to tell whether it is one or the other. But we can compare it to other passages. I have never seen a passage that says God and Jesus will return in Glory. It is always singular and only refering to Christ. If Jehovah Wittnesses are right then Father and Son will return. But no text really supports this.


Psa 9:7 But the LORD shall endure for ever: he hath prepared his throne for judgment.
Psa 9:8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.

Isa 33:22 For the LORD [is] our judge, the LORD [is] our lawgiver, the LORD [is] our king; he will save us.

Jesus is called king and our Judge in the New Testament.

2Ti 4:1 I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

This does not say God and Jesus' appearing. There are other psalms that say God will inherant the nations but in Psalm 2 God says his son will inherant the nations.

It appears to me that Jesus Chirst must be equal to and infact God, cause if not all these passages contradict eachother.
User avatar
Ray
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 7:06 pm


Return to Koine Greek And Mounce's Basics of Biblical Greek

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot], Isaac Newton, John W., Shenoute and 13 guests