Textkit Logo

Etiam - Roma Aeterna XLII Line 34

Here's where you can discuss all things Latin. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get translation help and more!

Moderator: thesaurus

Etiam - Roma Aeterna XLII Line 34

Postby wilhelmjohnson » Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:16 pm

What is etiam doing in line 34 of Roma Aeterna XLII? The clause, Multi mortales convenere studio etiam videndae novae urbis (Many people came with a desire of seeing the new city) seems to make sense without it.
wilhelmjohnson
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:01 pm

Re: Etiam - Roma Aeterna XLII Line 34

Postby MiguelM » Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:03 pm

I don't have the book with me, but etiam means 'also', 'even', so it must be joining up two different sentences. It probably means that they not only wanted to do something else (probably mentioned previously), but wanted to see the new city as well.
User avatar
MiguelM
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:35 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Etiam - Roma Aeterna XLII Line 34

Postby Interaxus » Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:20 pm

MiguelM, you are so right!

The preceding sentence is:

Romulus ... ludos parat Neptuno; deinde finitimos ad spectaculum vocari jubet.

So many came not only to see the games but ALSO because they were keen to see the new city.

Vale,
Int
Interaxus
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 509
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:04 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: Etiam - Roma Aeterna XLII Line 34

Postby pmda » Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:59 pm

I have a another question about this sentence: 'Multi mortales convenere studio etiam videndae novae urbis, maxime ex oppidis proximis Caenina, Crustumerio, Antemnis; etiam Sabinorum omnis multitudo cum liberis ac coniugibus venit'.

'videndae' is a gerund but I'm not sure why 'novae urbis' is also in genitive. I've read that Gerund seldom takes a direct object ?
pmda
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1041
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:15 am

Re: Etiam - Roma Aeterna XLII Line 34

Postby Qimmik » Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:29 pm

pmda: videndae is a gerundive. See Allen & Greenough sec. 504.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0001%3Asmythp%3D504
Qimmik
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1252
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:15 pm

Re: Etiam - Roma Aeterna XLII Line 34

Postby pmda » Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:20 pm

But....a gerundive is passive and really like an adjective.., right? So 'videndae novae urbis' if 'videndae' is gerundive means 'the new city worthy of being seen' so we have : many men came together desirous (studio) the new city worthy of being seen.....? I don't understand how it works as a gerundive.... the verbal meaning of videndae refers to the city rather than the multitude.....?
pmda
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1041
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:15 am

Re: Etiam - Roma Aeterna XLII Line 34

Postby pmda » Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:20 pm

Actually I think I get it. The Gerundive agrees with the objective...so 'studio' expresses 'for the purpose of' and the 'object' of the gerundive must agree with the gerundive case used in this instance...do I have that right?
pmda
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1041
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:15 am

Re: Etiam - Roma Aeterna XLII Line 34

Postby Qimmik » Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:02 am

I think you have it right.

studio videndae urbis novae is similar to causa videndae urbis novae

"For the purpose of the new city to be seen" would be a literal translation. The idiomatic Latin isn't quite what an English-speaker would expect. You need to assimilate this usage.
Qimmik
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1252
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:15 pm

Re: Etiam - Roma Aeterna XLII Line 34

Postby pmda » Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:33 am

Many thanks for your always-excellent help Quimmik.
pmda
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1041
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:15 am

Re: Etiam - Roma Aeterna XLII Line 34

Postby pmda » Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:20 am

I've a feeling I've raised this before but can't find it or maybe I thought I had raised it here. I have a question about the gender and number of objects taken by the gerund.

See this: http://people.bu.edu/tylert/Latin/gerun ... dives.html

and what it says under (2) OBJECTS

(2) OBJECTS: When a gerund takes an object, the object is in the same case that the verb which the gerund comes from normally takes.
Ex.) viros interficiendi causa for the sake of killing men;
"interficio" (to kill) takes an accusative, so "viros" (men) is in the accusative
libris studendi causa for the sake of studying books;
"studeo" (to study) takes the dative, so "libris" (books) is in the dative.

Now see this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsI3EC8AxQE

where at about 6.30 minutes in he says that whilst Gerunds can take objects in accusative - most of the time the case of the object agrees with the Gerund but the Gerund takes on the gender and number of the object. e.g. Discimus docenda Latina or Discimus docendis linguis.
pmda
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1041
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:15 am

Re: Etiam - Roma Aeterna XLII Line 34

Postby Qimmik » Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:05 pm

You seem to be confusing gerunds with gerundives. They are similar in form, but it's best to view them as distinct grammatical categories.

The gerund is an active verbal noun. It's neuter singular and it's used only in the genitive, dative, accusative and ablative.

The gerundive is a passive verbal adjective. It agrees in case, gender and number with the noun it modifies, i.e., with the grammatical subject of the gerundive, which is logically the object of the action denoted by the gerundive, since the gerundive is passive.

Generally, instead of using a gerund with a direct object in the accusative, Latin uses a gerundive agreeing in case, gender and number with the logical object of the action, i.e., the grammatical subject of the passive gerundive. This seems to be what is mentioned at 6.30 of the video.
Qimmik
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1252
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:15 pm

Re: Etiam - Roma Aeterna XLII Line 34

Postby pmda » Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:13 pm

Quimmik These are not my views.

I'm quoting two sources both of which discuss the gerund and both of which seem to contradict each other on the question of what (usually) happens when they take an object.

But now seem to remember before that I raised this before and that what the second source refers to as Gerund with objects taking gender and person etc... is in fact the gerundive.....?!!

This seems like a mistake..
pmda
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1041
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:15 am

Re: Etiam - Roma Aeterna XLII Line 34

Postby pmda » Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:34 pm

I posted this on his Youtube page.

Keith

You say 'When a gerund has an object, the object is usually in the same case as the gerund, but the gerund takes on the gender and number of the object'.

Then you go on to provide examples such as 'Discimus docenda Latina' and 'Discimus docendis linguis'.

But there's a problem with this. The Gerund is singular and neuter only. So these examples are not Gerunds but Gerundives.

Am I missing something?
pmda
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1041
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:15 am

Re: Etiam - Roma Aeterna XLII Line 34

Postby pmda » Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:36 pm

Here's where it was discussed before.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=59823&p=154499&hilit=massey#p154499
pmda
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1041
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:15 am

Re: Etiam - Roma Aeterna XLII Line 34

Postby Victor » Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:17 pm

pmda wrote:Quimmik These are not my views.

I'm quoting two sources

Reputable ones, I hope.

There's a lot of needless confusion over what is a gerund and what a gerundive. At least part of the explanation for it is the lack of consensus on terminology. German speakers and English speakers have gerundium/gerundivum and gerund/gerundive respectively, but the French, in defiance of international entente, refer to both as le gérondif (see Riemann, Syntaxe Latine). Perhaps some countries refer to both as gerunds; I don't know.

On the subject of defiance, I wish you wouldn't persistently refer to Qimmik as Quimmik, pmda. After so many chances to get the name right, your continuing to get it wrong begins to look more like policy than accident.
Victor
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:19 am

Re: Etiam - Roma Aeterna XLII Line 34

Postby pmda » Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:53 pm

Viktor

That you should believe Qimmik, one of the kindest and most charitable scholars one could wish for a teacher, should need you to stand up for him is quite distressing but, reassurangly, even more implausible.

Not least because you misconstrue the meaning of what you read and in your rudeness show the colour of a poor policeman when none has appointed you to the office nor indicated that this forum could be the scene of any impolite crime where such silliness has any purchase, let alone effect. I have no policy and your silliness, being deliberate, is no accident.

Paul
Last edited by pmda on Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
pmda
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1041
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:15 am

Re: Etiam - Roma Aeterna XLII Line 34

Postby Victor » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:19 pm

pmda wrote:Viktor

That you should believe Qimmik, one of the kindest and most charitable scholars one could wish for a teacher, should need you to stand up for him is quite distressing but, reassurangly, even more implausible.

Not least because you misconstrue the meaning of what you read and in your rudeness show the colour of a poor policeman when none has appointed you to the office nor indicated that this forum could be the scene of any impolite crime where such silliness has any purchase, let alone effect.

Paul

You're way off target. I wasn't standing up for Qimmik; I was testing to see whether you are more mature than you appeared to be. Clearly you aren't.
Victor
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:19 am

Re: Etiam - Roma Aeterna XLII Line 34

Postby pmda » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:24 pm

Actually reading your quite learned posts it strikes me that you have better things to be doing than writing to me in such a fashion.

Testing my maturity? Really? On the internet?

Good luck with that.
pmda
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1041
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:15 am


Return to Learning Latin

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Godmy, Google Adsense [Bot], Jandar, msfonsecajr and 75 guests