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Odyssey, Book 3

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Odyssey, Book 3

Postby huilen » Mon May 26, 2014 6:03 pm

Hope you don't get tired of my questions :) I'm very excited with the Odyssey.

10. οἱ δ᾽ ἰθὺς κατάγοντο ἰδ᾽ ἱστία νηὸς ἐίσης
11. στεῖλαν ἀείραντες, τὴν δ᾽ ὥρμισαν, ἐκ δ᾽ ἔβαν αὐτοί


A) I'm not sure if I'm taking this in the right way, but could be this a common combination of the imperfect with the aorist? First appears an imperfect which refers to an indefinite group of events, and then the next aorists enumerate these actions in more detail.

κατάγοντο (they arrived) => στεῖλαν ἱστία (furled the sails) + ὥρμισαν νῆα (brought the ships to anchor) + ἔβαν αὐτοί (went ashore)

26. ἄλλα δὲ καὶ δαίμων ὑποθήσεται: οὐ γὰρ ὀίω
27. οὔ σε θεῶν ἀέκητι γενέσθαι τε τραφέμεν τε.


B) τραφέμεν has an active form, but it is used in a passive sense here

29. ὣς ἄρα φωνήσασ᾽ ἡγήσατο Παλλὰς Ἀθήνη
30. καρπαλίμως: ὁ δ᾽ ἔπειτα μετ᾽ ἴχνια βαῖνε θεοῖο.


C) How would you explain that Athena led the way in the aorist, but Telemachus followed her in the imperfect?

103. ‘ὦ φίλ᾽, ἐπεί μ᾽ ἔμνησας ὀιζύος, ἥν ἐν ἐκείνῳ
104. δήμῳ ἀνέτλημεν μένος ἄσχετοι υἷες Ἀχαιῶν,


D) Which is the implicit antecedent of ἥν? I would expect that πήματα (referred at 100 by Telemachus), but then the relative pronoun should be neuter. All the synonyms that I could recollect are also neuter: ἄχεα, ἄλγεα, πένθεα, κῆδεα.

128. ἀλλ᾽ ἕνα θυμὸν ἔχοντε νόω καὶ ἐπίφρονι βουλῇ


E) How should I take νόω here?

139. οἱ ἦλθον οἴνῳ βεβαρηότες υἷες Ἀχαιῶν,


F) Should I take βεβαρηότες as passive? According to LSG, βαρέω = weigh down; and they are weighed down by the wine, so I would expect a passive form.

143. οὐδ᾽ Ἀγαμέμνονι πάμπαν ἑήνδανε: βούλετο γάρ ῥα
144. λαὸν ἐρυκακέειν ῥέξαι θ᾽ ἱερὰς ἑκατόμβας,


G) The infinitive ῥέξαι here is a little ambiguous, isn't it? It is not clear if should be taken with ἐρύκω (hinder from doing the hecatombs), or if it is an infinitive of purpose (hinder [from depart], to do the hecatombs).

159. ἐς Τένεδον δ᾽ ἐλθόντες ἐρέξαμεν ἱρὰ θεοῖσιν,
160. οἴκαδε ἱέμενοι: Ζεὺς δ᾽ οὔ πω μήδετο νόστον,


H) οἴκαδε ἱέμενοι [νέεσθαι]?

162. οἱ μὲν ἀποστρέψαντες ἔβαν νέας ἀμφιελίσσας
163. ἀμφ᾽ Ὀδυσῆα ἄνακτα δαΐφρονα, ποικιλομήτην,
164. αὖτις ἐπ᾽ Ἀτρεΐδῃ Ἀγαμέμνονι ἦρα φέροντες:


I) I missed something here, I had thought that Agamemnon was who wants to stay to do the hecatombs, but here it is said that Odysseus and his comrades departed "αὖτις ἐπ᾽Ἀγαμέμνονι ἦρα φέροντες". And he says "αὖτις", which was the first time?

166. φεῦγον, ἐπεὶ γίγνωσκον, ὃδὴ κακὰ μήδετο δαίμων.


J) What is ὅδη?

174. δεῖξε, καὶ ἠνώγει πέλαγος μέσον εἰς Εὔβοιαν
175. τέμνειν, ὄφρα τάχιστα ὑπὲκ κακότητα φύγοιμεν.


K) I am not sure about πέλαγος τέμνειν? Does it mean to cut across, to take a short cut (he says ὄφρα *τάχιστα* φύγοιμεν)?

191. πάντας δ᾽ Ἰδομενεὺς Κρήτην εἰσήγαγ᾽ ἑταίρους,
192. οἳ φύγον ἐκ πολέμου, πόντος δέ οἱ οὔ τιν᾽ ἀπηύρα.


L) I haven't other instances of this, but I thought that may be the imperfect ἀπηύρα is used here because it is referring to an action that doesn't take place (at any moment) and then is considered as stative, in contraposition with an action that actually occurred (φύγον) (at a puntual moment).

196. ὡς ἀγαθὸν καὶ παῖδα καταφθιμένοιο λιπέσθαι
197. ἀνδρός, ἐπεὶ καὶ κεῖνος ἐτίσατο πατροφονῆα,
198. Αἴγισθον δολόμητιν, ὅ οἱ πατέρα κλυτὸν ἔκτα.


M) How would you explain both καί?

245. τρὶς γὰρ δή μίν φασιν ἀνάξασθαι γένε᾽ ἀνδρῶν:


N) Merry says that τρίς is here equivalent to τρία. I don't know if it is common to use thus an adverb as a cardinal, but I wonder if I could take τρίς as the adverb it is, because γένεα = a generation of men (30 years?), and then we can say that he ruled over a generation of men three times (90 years?).

262. ἡμεῖς μὲν γὰρ κεῖθι πολέας τελέοντες ἀέθλους
263. ἥμεθ᾽: ὁ δ᾽ εὔκηλος μυχῷ Ἄργεος ἱπποβότοιο
264. πόλλ᾽ Ἀγαμεμνονέην ἄλοχον θέλγεσκ᾽ ἐπέεσσιν.


O) Is μέν...δέ used here to express simultaneity? "While we were in Troy fulfilling our many toils, he was at ease in the innermost part of Argos beguiling the wife of Agamemnon".

283. νῆα κυβερνῆσαι, ὁπότε σπέρχοιεν ἄελλαι.


P) This is the entry for σπέρχω in Cunliffe:

Intrans. for reflexive, of wind, to rush, blow furiously: ὁπότε σπέρχοιεν ἄελλαι γ 283. Cf. Ν 334.


Q) But I think that σπέρχω could be taken here in it's active meaning, "to put in rapid motion", being νῆα the implicit object: "whenever the whirlwinds put [the ships] in rapid motion". Do you see any problem with this?

295. ἔνθα Νότος μέγα κῦμα ποτὶ σκαιὸν ῥίον ὠθεῖ,


R) Is σκαιός used by Homer with it's metaphorical meaning "unlucky"? I am not sure if I should read here "the unlucky crag" (because it was struck over and over again by the waves), or just "the western rock", if this has any sense.

312. πολλὰ κτήματ᾽ ἄγων, ὅσα οἱ νέες ἄχθος ἄειραν.


S) I would expect "ὅσα...ἄχθεα", how should I take ἄχθος?

317. ἀλλ᾽ ἐς μὲν Μενέλαον ἐγὼ κέλομαι καὶ ἄνωγα
318. ἐλθεῖν: κεῖνος γὰρ νέον ἄλλοθεν εἰλήλουθεν,
319. ἐκ τῶν ἀνθρώπων, ὅθεν οὐκ ἔλποιτό γε θυμῷ


T) I had problems here. Is νέον accussative of place to which? Is ὅθεν referring to τῶν ἀνθρώπων?

403. τῷ δ᾽ ἄλοχος δέσποινα λέχος πόρσυνε καὶ εὐνήν.


U) Is there any difference between εὐνή and λέχος?

455. τῆς δ᾽ ἐπεὶ ἐκ μέλαν αἷμα ῥύη, λίπε δ᾽ ὀστέα θυμός,


V) Here ἐκ is following τῆς, but the accent of the proclitic is not retained.

481. ἂν δ᾽ ἄρα Τηλέμαχος περικαλλέα βήσετο δίφρον:
482. πὰρ δ᾽ ἄρα Νεστορίδης Πεισίστρατος, ὄρχαμος ἀνδρῶν,
483. ἐς δίφρον τ᾽ ἀνέβαινε καὶ ἡνία λάζετο χερσί,
484. μάστιξεν δ᾽ ἐλάαν, τὼ δ᾽ οὐκ ἀέκοντε πετέσθην
485. ἐς πεδίον, λιπέτην δὲ Πύλου αἰπὺ πτολίεθρον.


W) How would you explain that Telemachus ascends the chariot in the aorist, but the son of Nestor does it in the imperfect?

And here are the forms that I couldn't explain:

15. ἐπέπλως => ἐπέπλευσας (if it were a second aorist alternative to ἐπέπλευσα, then why it ends in ως instead of ες? I have thought that maybe this is a mixed aorist and ως is the contraction for οας, but I'm not sure.)

57. υἱάσι => υἱέσι / ὑιοῖσι

109. ἀρήιος => ἀρείος

232. κεράασθε => κερᾶσθε (contracted from κεράεσθε)

250. ἀρείω => ἀρείονα

420. δαῖτα => δαίτην (appears modified by θάλειαν, so I would expect a femenine accussative noun).

444. εἶχε => ἔχε (I would say that εἶ is the contraction for ἐέ, which is the augment of verb beginning with the digamma, but I checked in Cunliffe and ἔχω hasn't the stem in digamma.)
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Re: Odyssey, Book 3

Postby mwh » Tue May 27, 2014 2:51 am

A. Their coming into shore (katagonto) was a gradual process, and then we get a series of punctual actions, which we are grammatically free to take as executed while they were coming to shore but much more likely subsequent to it. We have a succession: they come into land (bit by bit), and it’s only when they hit the beach that they furl the sails, moor the boat, and disembark.
B. Yes that’s right. This aorist, active in form, is used by Homer as if it were passive, here and elsewhere.
C. Athene led off, and Telemachus proceeded to follow her. It’s a common sequence, as is the reverse (your A).
D. It has an expressed antecedent, in fact, oizuos (gen of oizus). Lit. “Since you reminded me of the misery which …”
E. Shouldn’t it have an iota subscript? nowi dative of noos, in tandem with epifroni boulhi.
F. Right. This perfect participle is intransitive in Homer, used as if it were passive.
G. It’s a second infin governed by bouleto, NB the postpositive te “and”, putting the two infinitive phrases in parallel. rejai is the standard verb for hecatombs (i.e. sacrifice).
H. Yes that’s the sense but iemenoi doesn’t need an infinitive, can stand perfectly well with directional adverbs. “eager for home,” "hastening homewards"
I. autis can mean “back” (to where they’d come from), but its position does suggest it’s to be taken with the participial phrase. autis needn’t imply that he had done Ag a favor the first time; rather it means that this time around he did, in deciding to go back and stay with Ag after all. Or that’s how I’d take it. Approximates to First he sailed off, then in turn (autis) he sailed back again (autis) (as Ag would have wanted), two successive actions, and a reversal to boot.
J. Split it into two (as the accents indicate), o + dh. o (neut. sing. rel. pronoun, technically) is tantamount to oti “that” (introducing indirect statement), and dh gives it punch.
K. No, the ship’s bow “cuts”, “cleaves” the ocean. temnein ghn is to plow; the ship as it were plows the deep.
L. Homer seems to use this as if it were aorist, not imperfect (which in form it should be). It’s an odd verb.
M. The first kai is laying stress on paida, “an actual son,” “a son too” (in addition to whatever else may be left). (lipesqai, though properly middle, is apparently used as passive, as sometimes happens, cf. the identicality in the present.) The second is fairly similar: “in fact Orestes”, “Orestes too” (exemplificatory of what a slain man’s son can do). These are overtranslations, of course.
N. Yes I think this is on the right lines. It’s slightly muddied by the fact that gene(a) is plural, but the singular would imply that he was three times king of a single generation.
O. The idea of simultaneity is conveyed more by the matching imperfects than by men/de, which simply oppose what we were doing with what he was doing (“at the time” is understood rather than expressed). We might use “while” (better with the de clause than with the men: “There were we, …, while he …), but Homer is characteristically paratactic.

I’ll have to leave it there for now. I may continue later, unless Qimmik picks it up from here. There’s no need for me with him here. You’re asking excellent questions, paying attention to just the right things.
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Re: Odyssey, Book 3

Postby Qimmik » Tue May 27, 2014 12:46 pm

I'll spell mwh here.

P and Q. I would take this to mean that he excelled at steering the ship when the winds were blowing furiously, i.e., in rough weather, the true test of a steersman's skill.

R. Here σκαιὸν ῥίον is just the "left shore," which I think would be to the south if the ship is traveling west.

S. ἄχθος is appositive to ὅσα -- "goods, which the ships had taken on as cargo."

T. νέον is adverbial: "newly" or "recently."

"Is ὅθεν referring to τῶν ἀνθρώπων?" Yes.

U. εὐνή is the bedding (everything that goes on top of the bedframe for the comfort of the sleeper); λέχος is the bed itself.

LSJ εὐνή:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Deu%29nh%2F

V. The rule (I had to look this up) is that monosyllabic prepositions beginning with a vowel retain their accent when they follow their complement only at verse-end or before punctuation. P. Probert, A New Short Guide to the Accentuation of Ancient Greek (Bristol Classical Press 2003), p. 127, sec. 257.

W. "How would you explain that Telemachus ascends the chariot in the aorist, but the son of Nestor does it in the imperfect?" The focus shifts from the event--Telemachus gets on the chariot--to the process--Pisistratus is getting on, taking the reins--and then back to the event--he whipped the horses.

15. ἐπέπλως -- this is a fossilized "athematic" second aorist that would be conjugated like ἔγνων if there were other forms. The -ς is added directly to the aorist stem -πλω-, without the "thematic" vowel -ε-.

Smyth 681 ff:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Smyth+grammar+681&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0007

57. υἱάσι - this is a 3rd declension form. It can be explained by historical linguistics (the -ά- is the reflex of syllabic ν). In general, the Greeks couldn't make up their minds whether υἱός was a second or third declension word, and there is a luxuriant proliferation of forms in various dialects, as the LSJ entry attests:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dui%28o%2Fs

109. Ἀρήϊος and Ἄρειος (proparoxytone) are alternative forms with different metrical shapes--convenient for oral composition.

332. κεράασθε is one of those forms that developed in the epic language after contraction occurred (κεράεσθε > κερᾶσθε) in order to preserve the metrical shape of the original word in formulaic expressions. The contraction wasn't simply reversed, perhaps because the aoidoi weren't aware that the contraction had occurred. Instead, the contracted α was extended back for one short syllable to replace the short syllable preceding the long syllable in the uncontracted form. There are many forms like this in the epic language, which was an artificial language that no one ever spoke and which evolved exclusively as the medium for hexameter verse.

250. ἀρείω - alternative to ἀρείονα.

See Smyth sec. 293, declension of βελτίων:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Smyth+grammar+293&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0007

420.

δαίς, "meal," is feminine.

LSJ :

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Ddai%2Fs2

δαίτη is an alternative with a different metrical shape--again, it's convenient to have the alternative to fill a different metrical slot when necessary.

444. εἶχε is the regular imperfect, this time with augment.
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Re: Odyssey, Book 3

Postby mwh » Tue May 27, 2014 6:33 pm

A footnote on V (Od.3.455). The της is not directly (or at all, even) dependent on the εκ. The intervening δ’ επει precludes that. The εκ belongs more with the verb, and is best regarded as adverbial. Some would refer to εκ … ρυη as an instance of tmesis (prepositional prefix separated from its verb), but in Homer it’s anachronistic to think of it as a divided compound. The εκ functions more as an independent adverb. Out the blood flowed, it flowed out from her.

PS. Smyth 1638b insists that even in βλεφαρων απο δακρυα πιπτει, where απο directly follows the genitive, βλεφαρων is not governed by the απο. (He renders this word-by-word as “from her eyelids, away, tears fall”—but of course it’s not until we reach απο that we know what the function of the genitive is, “from” her eyelids.)

Actually the fronted της (and maybe the εκ too, along with the επει) should probably be regarded as common to both clauses. Her blood, her thumos. But the genitive will be more separative (ablatival) than possessive (true gen.).
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Re: Odyssey, Book 3

Postby huilen » Wed May 28, 2014 3:03 am

Thank you both for your answers! :)

mwh wrote:E. Shouldn’t it have an iota subscript? nowi dative of noos, in tandem with epifroni boulhi.


That would be much sense; it appears without the iota subscript in perseus, but I don't know which edition of the text is on that site. (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... card%3D102)

mwh wrote:H. Yes that’s the sense but iemenoi doesn’t need an infinitive, can stand perfectly well with directional adverbs. “eager for home,” "hastening homewards"


Yes, I've seen in LSJ that it could take just an accusative, but then I was expecting οἶκον instead of οἴκαδε (for that reason I thought that maybe νέεσθαι was somehow implicit).

Qimmik wrote:444. εἶχε is the regular imperfect, this time with augment.


But it begins with a vowel, and takes the syllabic augment instead of the temporal one. I understand that some verbs beginning with a vowel take the syllabic augment owing to it's having formerly began with the digamma, but in LSJ I don't see that this verb has had the digamma.
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Re: Odyssey, Book 3

Postby Qimmik » Wed May 28, 2014 12:50 pm

εἶχε - is the usual imperfect of this verb (not the "regular" imperfect, as I wrote). I'm surprised that Pharr didn't mention this.

LSJ notes that the imperfect is εἶχον:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3De%29%2Fxw1

The (contracted) syllabic augment is explained in Smyth sec. 431:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Smyth+grammar+431&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0007

Some verbs beginning with a vowel take the syllabic augment because they formerly began with a consonant. Thus, . . . ἔχω hold (σεχω), εἶχον.


In other words, the original form of the imperfect would have been *ἔ-σεχ-ον. The σ dropped out, leaving *ἔ-εχ-ον, and the sequence ἔ-ε was contracted to εἶ-.

An original σ- at the beginning of a word has usually been replaced by a rough breathing in Attic Greek and in the texts of the Homeric poems. In the conjugation of ἔχω, the present has a smooth breathing, but one form of the future is ἕξω, from *σεχ-σω. The other is σχ-ή-σω. (These usually appear in compound verbs and in the middle voice.) The aorist is ἔ-σχ-ον.

In the aorist ἔ-σχ-ον, the vowel of the root is reduced to zero; you can read about this phenomenon (vowel gradation) in Smyth 476-7 if you're interested. You may find this too much or too confusing for you at this stage, but even a cursory understanding of these processes could be helpful in making some of the apparent irregularities of Greek (and especially Homeric Greek) more transparent:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Smyth+grammar+476&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0007
Last edited by Qimmik on Wed May 28, 2014 1:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Odyssey, Book 3

Postby mwh » Wed May 28, 2014 1:18 pm

Note the clues in fut. ἕξ- (rough breathing) and aor. σχ- (cf. e.g. ἕπομαι~sequor w/ aor. σπ-); and there are various other indications.
Doesn't have to be specifically digamma to produce syllabic augment.
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Re: Odyssey, Book 3

Postby Qimmik » Wed May 28, 2014 1:38 pm

The weakening of /s/ to /h/ occurs in some varieties of Carribean Spanish (e.g., Puerto Rican), if I'm not mistaken. And in French /s/ has completely dropped out in many contexts -- for example, école from *escole, from Latin schola, château from Latin castellum, etc. A process very similar to the process that happened in these Romance languages (or, in the case of Spanish, a process that is currently at work) occurred in Greek at a prehistoric stage of the language.
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Re: Odyssey, Book 3

Postby Qimmik » Wed May 28, 2014 7:53 pm

See Pharr sec. 836 on εἶχον.
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Re: Odyssey, Book 3

Postby huilen » Thu May 29, 2014 8:43 pm

In the aorist ἔ-σχ-ον, the vowel of the root is reduced to zero; you can read about this phenomenon (vowel gradation) in Smyth 476-7 if you're interested. You may find this too much or too confusing for you at this stage, but even a cursory understanding of these processes could be helpful in making some of the apparent irregularities of Greek (and especially Homeric Greek) more transparent:

I didn't quite understand what Smyth says about strong and weak grades, maybe I need some background of historical linguistics to understand it, which I have not really. I've curiosity though, and maybe such background would be helpful not only in understanding Homer's apparent irregularities, but also to guess new vocabulary and to get into other dialects later. And right, it can be also that this confuse me even more :) By the moment I I've just found this document with a compendium of Ancient Greek phonology, if interest somebody: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/docs/CompPhon.pdf
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Re: Odyssey, Book 3

Postby Qimmik » Thu May 29, 2014 10:08 pm

Vowel gradation:

Look at secs. 10 and 11 of the Compendium, pp. 67-8.

Also, look at Pharr sec. 682, p. 276, and 865-6. pp. 277-8.
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