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Translation Help

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Translation Help

Postby SgtMurphy » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:08 pm

I'm trying to translate the phrase "Be all my sins remember'd" into Latin, and so far I have "Omnes vitia mea memorent."
First question: Could the partititve genitive be used here? I.e. "All of my sins"
Second question: Is this proper use of the subjunctive? My instructor said desired actions can be constructed using the subjunctive but I would just like some clarification.
EDIT: *memorentur
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Re: Translation Help

Postby Calgacus » Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:02 pm

Unfortunately it's difficult to turn "remember" into the passive in Latin, since memini is a defective verb which is never really used in the passive. The other common verb for remember, recordor, -ari, is deponent, so you have the same problem. memoro, -are means "to commemorate/call to mind" rather than "to remember". So your initial version actually means something like "Let everyone commemorate my sins." (!)

Certainly that's a suitable use of the (jussive) subjunctive. I would suggest something like Omnia vitia (or peccata) mea in memoria maneant, but that sounds a little clunky...any other suggestions?
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Re: Translation Help

Postby huilen » Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:41 pm

SgtMurphy wrote: "Omnes vitia mea memorent."
EDIT: *memorentur

"Omnia vitia mea memoretur".
Neuter plural nouns, when used as the subject, take a singular verb.

Or:
"Omnes vitia mea memorent".
Where the subject is omnes and the object is vitia mea.

Second question: Is this proper use of the subjunctive?

Yes, it is called exhortary subjunctive.
Last edited by huilen on Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Translation Help

Postby SgtMurphy » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:09 am

huilen wrote:
SgtMurphy wrote: "Omnes vitia mea memorent."
EDIT: *memorentur

"Omnia vitia mea memoretur".
Neuter plural nouns, when used as the subject, take a singular verb.

Or:
"Omnes vitia mea memorent".
Where the subject is omnes and the object is vitia mea.

Second question: Is this proper use of the subjunctive?

Yes, it is called exhortary subjunctive.


Thank you. I was unaware of that convention.
What I typed was probably sloppy; it was recalled from what I came up with this morning before a particularly stressful test.
Also, thank you for confirming the use of the subjunctive.
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Re: Translation Help

Postby huilen » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:12 am

First question: Could the partititve genitive be used here? I.e. "All of my sins"

Verbs of remembering and forgetting may take either the accusative or the genitive. However, I think that memoro better takes the accussative, but there are other verbs similar in meaning that may take the genitive or the accussative as well, as recordor or memini. Anyway, it would not be the partitive genitive, but the genitive of the object.
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Re: Translation Help

Postby SgtMurphy » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:19 am

huilen wrote:
First question: Could the partititve genitive be used here? I.e. "All of my sins"

Verbs of remembering and forgetting may take either the accusative or the genitive. However, I think that memoro better takes the accussative, but there are other verbs similar in meaning that may take the genitive or the accussative as well, as recordor or memini. Anyway, it would not be the partitive genitive, but the genitive of the object.


The construction is not particular important, just so long as it conveys a similiar meaning as the English.
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Re: Translation Help

Postby Qimmik » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:50 am

Neuter plural nouns, when used as the subject, take a singular verb.


This is true in Greek, but not in Latin.

Memorent is active--we want a passive verb here, with omnia vitia mea as the subject.
Last edited by Qimmik on Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Translation Help

Postby huilen » Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:01 am

Sorry, I mess me up! In Latin this agreement between the subject and the verb would be like a solecism. Too much Greek for me in the last months... :P
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Re: Translation Help

Postby Qimmik » Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:14 am

And memoro may not be quite the right verb. It means "to remind" or "recount", i.e., to "tell about."

http://perseus.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.11:1200.lewisandshort

If the meaning is "to retain in the memory," memoria teneantur or memoria retineantur would be better.

http://perseus.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.11:1194.lewisandshort

http://perseus.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.16:1183.lewisandshort
Last edited by Qimmik on Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Translation Help

Postby Qimmik » Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:15 am

Duplicate post deleted.
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Re: Translation Help

Postby SgtMurphy » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:37 am

Qimmik wrote:And memoro may not be quite the right verb. It means "to remind" or "recount", i.e., to "tell about."

http://perseus.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.11:1200.lewisandshort

If the meaning is "to retain in the memory," memoria teneantur or memoria retineantur would be better.

http://perseus.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.11:1194.lewisandshort

http://perseus.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.16:1183.lewisandshort


I suppose it works for my purpose. I want it in the sense of talked about, stories told, a memory everlasting in the minds of others. Are there any other verbs which hold a similiar meaning to memoria tenere?
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Re: Translation Help

Postby Qimmik » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:26 pm

How about this?

turpitudines meae celebrentur omnes
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Re: Translation Help

Postby huilen » Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:47 pm

turpitudines meae celebrentur omnes

:) It sounds funny.
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Re: Translation Help

Postby SgtMurphy » Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:09 am

Thanks for your help, guys.
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