Godmy wrote:In the sentences of this kind: "Having come to the city, I entered a shop." or "Having knocked, the door opened." would you expect frequently the participle of perfect in the Attic Greek?
To rephrase the question: are there some participles which are really rarely used (and/or some other participles are used in their place) and are rather avoided? (Like in this particular case?)
Scribo wrote:Aorist: This is prior to the verb so...to paida idousa kolazw (I punish the child having seen him)
Qimmik wrote: The Greek aorist participle more often corresponds to Latin perfect participles, indicating that the action occurred and was completed before the action of the main verb.
Paul Derouda wrote:καὶ μὴν βεβίνηκας σύ γ᾽
Qimmik wrote:"Would it perhaps be helpful if textbooks described the perfect as the present perfect as is normal in English?"
There is a difference--the Greek perfect can be used in a past context; the English present perfect can't. So maybe designating the Greek perfect as the present perfect would be more confusing.
Bart wrote:Paul Derouda wrote:καὶ μὴν βεβίνηκας σύ γ᾽
Huh huh. For the rest of my Greek studying life this little sentence will come to mind when pondering the syntactical function of the perfect.
I'd be interested to see an example where the Greek perfect is used where in English we would not.
Qimmik wrote:Most Greek perfects could probably be translated by English present perfects, but without something additional the special meaning of the Greek perfect would be lost. To take an example, the sentence near the beginning of Xenophon's Symposium in my other post on the perfect:
ἦν μὲν γὰρ Παναθηναίων τῶν μεγάλων ἱπποδρομία, Καλλίας δὲ ὁ Ἱππονίκου ἐρῶν ἐτύγχανεν Αὐτολύκου παιδὸς ὄντος, καὶ νενικηκότα αὐτὸν παγκράτιον ἧκεν ἄγων ἐπὶ τὴν θέαν.
To turn this sentence around so that Hipponicus is the subject and a non-dangling present perfect participle can be used in English, "Hipponicus was brought to the race by Callias, having won the pancration" doesn't convey the idea that is present in the Greek. This doesn't merely tell us that Hipponicus won the match and then Callias brought him along. Hipponicus was the winner of the match--it was his status as the winner that Callias was celebrating by bringing him to the horse race.
daivid wrote:Just thought this was a nice example of the perfect
ἐρυμάτων ὅσον μὲν ἀπαντικρὺ τῶν θυρῶν ἐστιν, ἀλήλιπται κυανῷ μόνον, τὰ δὲ λοιπὰ αὐτῶν παρέχεται Παναίνου γραφάς.
Of the screens the quantity which are directly opposite the doors have been daubed with azure, the remainder present pictures of Panaenus.
Here Pausanias is not merely mentioning that the blue paint is still (at the time he was writing) on the screens. He is stressing that at the moment of walking thru the doors the visitor will be confronted by a big mass of blue. The result of the daubing is what matters - the actual act of daubing the blue is irrelevant.
If I have this right, it's not when the result of past actions is still around that they used the perfect but when they wish to stress the result.
Mick Jagger wrote:I see a red door and I want it painted black
No colors any more, I want them to turn black...
...I see the girls walk by dressed in their summer clothes
I have to turn my head until my darkness goes.
Markos wrote:ἔρυμα κυανῷ ἀληλιμμένον = ἔρυμα κύανον?
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