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Odyssey 12, 73-172

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Odyssey 12, 73-172

Postby huilen » Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:26 pm

Hey! :D I have moved on with Book 12, here are some doubts that I have been accumulating (sorry for the chunk, I will group them where possible).


Many times I see that the direct object of a transitive verb is someway understood. In English this would be ungrammatical. Is Greek more lax in this sense?

τῆς ἦ τοι φωνὴ μὲν ὅση σκύλακος νεογιλῆς
γίγνεται, αὐτὴ δ' αὖτε πέλωρ κακόν: οὐδέ κέ τίς μιν
γηθήσειεν ἰδών, οὐδ' εἰ θεὸς ἀντιάσειεν [her or Scylla].

τῷ δ' ὑπὸ δῖα Χάρυβδις ἀναρροιβδεῖ μέλαν ὕδωρ.
τρὶς μὲν γάρ τ' ἀνίησιν ἐπ' ἤματι, τρὶς δ' ἀναροιβδεῖ [it or the water]
δεινόν (...)

εἰ δέ κε σίνηαι [them or the flocks], τότε τοι τεκμαίρομ᾽ ὄλεθρον,

I have checked the verbs in Cunliffe, and they have not an intransitive variant.


81. πρὸς ζόφον εἰς Ἔρεβος τετραμμένον, ᾗ περ ἂν ὑμεῖς
82. νῆα παρὰ γλαφυρὴν ἰθύνετε, φαίδιμ᾽ Ὀδυσσεῦ.

What is doing ἄν in an imperative clause? It ocurred to me that ἰθύνετε may be subjunctive and this an hortatory sentence, but Smyth says that hortatory sentences have not ἄν neither:

Hortatory: The subjunctive without ἄν is used in exhortations. The negative is μή Smyth 1797-1799

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... orm%3Dsubj


I couldn't explain the following perfects:

116. ‘σχέτλιε, καὶ δὴ αὖ τοι πολεμήια ἔργα μέμηλε
117. καὶ πόνος: οὐδὲ θεοῖσιν ὑπείξεαι ἀθανάτοισιν;

160. οἶον ἔμ᾽ ἠνώγει ὄπ᾽ ἀκουέμεν: ἀλλά με δεσμῷ
161. δήσατ᾽ ἐν ἀργαλέῳ, ὄφρ᾽ ἔμπεδον αὐτόθι μίμνω,
162. ὀρθὸν ἐν ἱστοπέδῃ, ἐκ δ᾽ αὐτοῦ πείρατ᾽ ἀνήφθω.


101. τὸν δ᾽ ἕτερον σκόπελον χθαμαλώτερον ὄψει, Ὀδυσσεῦ.
102. πλησίον ἀλλήλων: καί κεν διοϊστεύσειας.

S&H says that πλησίον is an adverb. But which verb it modifies? Is it that εἰσι is understood?


What is explaining γάρ here?

153. δὴ τότ᾽ ἐγὼν ἑτάροισι μετηύδων ἀχνύμενος κῆρ:
154. ‘ὦ φίλοι, οὐ γὰρ χρὴ ἕνα ἴδμεναι οὐδὲ δύ᾽ οἴους
155. θέσφαθ᾽ ἅ μοι Κίρκη μυθήσατο, δῖα θεάων:
156. ἀλλ᾽ ἐρέω μὲν ἐγών, ἵνα εἰδότες ἤ κε θάνωμεν
157. ἤ κεν ἀλευάμενοι θάνατον καὶ κῆρα φύγοιμεν.

Odysseus is saying to their comrades that it is not right to reveal the divine decrees, but that he will do it anyway. So, it seems to me that the first is a concessive clause: "although this is not right, I will do it anyway". Then, I don't understand what is doing γάρ, where is the causal relationship here?
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Re: Odyssey 12, 73-172

Postby Qimmik » Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:15 am

1. Yes, the objects are understood.

2. ἰθύνετε is a short-vowel aorist subjunctive with ἄν in a general relative clause: "wherever you steer the ship . . ."

3. μέμηλε -- a perfect with present meaning: "they have become of concern to you" = "they are of concern to you" = "you care about"

ἀνήφθω -- ἀνάπτω, 3rd sing. imperative passive -- literally, "let the ropes have been fastened from it", i.e., "let the ropes be fastened . . . "

4. πλησίον modifies ὄψει -- "you will see it nearby one another [ἀλλήλων, the construction is a little loose], you might even shoot an arrow through them."

See LSJ: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dplh%2Fsios

πλησίοι ἀλλήλων, πλησίαι ἀλλήλων, πλησίοι ἀλλήλοισι and πλησίω ἀλλήλοισι occur elsewhere in the Homeric poems. πλησίον ἀλλήλων is an adaptation of a formulaic expression πλησι+short syllable ἀλλήλ- in a context where it doesn't quite fit--but the meaning is clear enough.

5. οὐ γὰρ χρὴ ἕνα ἴδμεναι οὐδὲ δύ᾽ οἴους -- "not just one or two [of us] should know her divine commands . . . " In other words, you should all know them. This doesn't mean "not even one or two you should know . . ."

γάρ is like "since" here. See LSJ γάρ 2:

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Re: Odyssey 12, 73-172

Postby huilen » Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:10 pm

Thank you for your clear and concise response.
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