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I believe...

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I believe...

Postby auctor » Wed Apr 21, 2004 11:02 pm

[face=SPIonic]peiqomai[/face] takes the dative at times like "I believe in Father Christmas" but does it also when one's trying to say "I believe a new coat is better"?
Accusative, (men?) seems natural but my heart (de?) screams out for a dative. Any thoughts?

On a not unrelated matter in
I dont know whether.... or ....
would the ellipses be acc + participles or is "poteron" strong enough to break the clause and the ellipses be nominatives and finite verbs?

cheers,
Paul McK
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Re: I believe...

Postby annis » Wed Apr 21, 2004 11:32 pm

auctor wrote:[face=SPIonic]pei/qomai[/face] takes the dative at times like "I believe in Father Christmas" but does it also when one's trying to say "I believe a new coat is better"?
Accusative, (men?) seems natural but my heart (de?) screams out for a dative. Any thoughts?


I'd dodge the issue and use a [face=spionic]nomi/zw, h(gou=mai[/face] + acc. inf. construction instead.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Postby chad » Thu Apr 22, 2004 3:29 am

hi paul, for your 1st question, i think you use accusative for something like a coat, but dative for a person. check out paragraph B.II in lsj:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/pt ... 3D%2380328

xenophon does use the dative in the lsj reference when referring to a person, i had a quick look:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/pt ... 2fqw#word1

for your 2nd question, i think you use finitive verbs. it's an indirect alternative question. thompson in greek prose usage says that "the verb is put in the same tense and mood as in oratoria recta". smyth at para 2675 gives some examples of alternative indirect questions, and they're in the finite:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/pt ... d%3D%23683

are you writing for the spectator competition?? :)
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Postby auctor » Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:00 am

Will & Chad,
Thanks for your advice, I had considered [face=SPIonic]nomi/zw[/face] Will and shall give it another dose of pondering.
(I should know better from my crossword compiling - a simple thing perfectly done is always better than a clever device which is slightly mangled)
The indirect, alternate question question still worries me (Perseus is otherwise engaged, so I haven't yet been able to follow up your links, Chad)
[face=SPIonic]oi)da[/face] normally carries acc. + parts
alternate questions take the oratio recta, as you say.
hmmm I'll have to dig around in Smyth when I can - of course different authors may well have used either construction - could be they're both right in their own ways.

Yes I am fiddling about with the Spectator comp... a Latin and Greek version (I didn't use 'translation' on purpose) of an excerpt done, I'm polishing the Greek up now. :lol:

toodle-oo,
Paul McK
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Postby chad » Fri Apr 23, 2004 12:02 am

hi paul, sorry i should have given an example, thompson gives

[face=SPIonic]ou0k oi]da ei0 a)pe/lqw[/face]

and on the perseus links i think i remember other examples near the bottom of indirect alternative questions having finite verbs even where the direct verb is a knowing verb (and so as u said it's different from an indirect statement where "knowing" direct verbs take the participle).

could u post up here or pm me your greek translations? i'd like to read them. my greek is still too poor to enter, but i'd like to read the clauses you've produced :)
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