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ὁρμὴν ἔσχε

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ὁρμὴν ἔσχε

Postby daivid » Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:55 am

This is from the Polybius 3.6.13
ἅμα τῷ περιποιήσασθαι τὴν ἐκ τῶν Ἑλλήνων εὔνοιαν ὁμολογουμένην, εὐθέως προφάσει χρώμενος ὅτι σπεύδει μετελθεῖν τὴν Περσῶν παρανομίαν εἰς τοὺς Ἕλληνας, ὁρμὴν ἔσχε καὶ προέθετο πολεμεῖν καὶ πάντα πρὸς τοῦτο τὸ μέρος ἡτοίμαζε.

And here is my as literal as possible translation
At the same time as he had gained the freely-given good will of the Greeks, he at once using the pretext that he is hastening to punish the violations of norms of the Persians against the Greeks, he had set in motion and set himself to make war and prepare all these (things) appropriate.


None of the sentence am I totally okay with but the idiomatic use of ἔχω has really got me stumped.
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Re: ὁρμὴν ἔσχε

Postby Qimmik » Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:17 pm

ὁρμὴν ἔσχε -- it means something like "he got things going," "he started to make an effort", "put himself in motion," "geared up." "He got himself in gear" is maybe too colloquial, but I think that's the idea.

LSJ ὁρμὴ II:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Do%28rmh%2F

You can't always rely on finding an exact translation for an idiomatic usage like this. You have to get the meaning from the context, knowing the meanings of the individual words.

"once he had gained the freely-given good will of the Greeks, right away, using the pretext that he was hastening to pursue the violations of the Persians against the Greeks, he put himself in motion and made up his mind to wage war and was preparing [or "began to prepare" -- imperfect because he was assassinated before he could carry out his plan] everything for that matter.

LSJ μέρος A.IV.1: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=LSJ+me%2Fros&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057
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Re: ὁρμὴν ἔσχε

Postby daivid » Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:30 pm

Qimmik wrote:ὁρμὴν ἔσχε -- it means something like "he got things going," "he started to make an effort", "put himself in motion," "geared up." "He got himself in gear" is maybe too colloquial, but I think that's the idea.

LSJ ὁρμὴ II:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Do%28rmh%2F

From the link, impulse as in "had an impulse" seems to both fit the context and correspond to the Greek. Is this simply a set phrase with no relation to other uses of εχω plus a noun? Is it equivalent to the constructions in English such as had a look/think/try etc ?
Qimmik wrote:
You can't always rely on finding an exact translation for an idiomatic usage like this. You have to get the meaning from the context, knowing the meanings of the individual words.

"once he had gained the freely-given good will of the Greeks, right away, using the pretext that he was hastening to pursue the violations of the Persians against the Greeks, he put himself in motion and made up his mind to wage war and was preparing [or "began to prepare" -- imperfect because he was assassinated before he could carry out his plan] everything for that matter.

LSJ μέρος A.IV.1: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=LSJ+me%2Fros&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057

I don't see how to get from πάντα πρὸς τοῦτο τὸ μέρος ἡτοίμαζε. to "was preparing everything for that matter"
When I looked up μέρος I found πρὸς μέρος ="in proportion" which I rendered as "appropriate" but from your translation I was a complete red herring. The bit I should have focused on, I assume, was "hence, branch, business, matter". Thanks. And thanks for the pointing out the imperfect. I hadn't picked up on that.
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Re: ὁρμὴν ἔσχε

Postby Qimmik » Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:42 pm

From the link, impulse as in "had an impulse" seems to both fit the context and correspond to the Greek. Is this simply a set phrase with no relation to other uses of εχω plus a noun? Is it equivalent to the constructions in English such as had a look/think/try etc ?


The reason I avoided "had an impulse" is that he seems to have already had the impulse. He has already been thinking about a Persian expedition and mulling it over.

ὁρμάω means "to set in motion," "to start up." Maybe "he got started" would do here.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Do(rma%2Fw

ἔχω is used loosely in a wide variety of ways in idiomatic Greek. It's an all-purpose verb.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3De)%2Fxw1

This is one instance where you have to get the meaning from the context, not the dictionary. Maybe "he got a start" would be English enough. But if you're reading Greek, you don't need to formulate an exact translation, as long as you get a pretty good idea what the author is trying to say, based on an understanding of the basic meaning of the words and the context. That way you will be able to read more fluently and naturally.

πρὸς μέρος -- the dictionary is really owly a guide as to the range of possible meanings a word can have. "To this purpose" might do here for a translation.

προέθετο πολεμεῖν -- How about "he set a war as his goal"?
Last edited by Qimmik on Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ὁρμὴν ἔσχε

Postby Paul Derouda » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:08 pm

How about ὁρμὴν ἔσχε = "took the iniative"?
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Re: ὁρμὴν ἔσχε

Postby Qimmik » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:57 pm

ὁρμὴν ἔσχε -- "he got going"?
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Re: ὁρμὴν ἔσχε

Postby Markos » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:06 pm

Qimmik wrote:ὁρμάω means "to set in motion," "to start up." Maybe "he got started" would do here.

Agreed. ἔχω can, among other things, create a paraphrastic passive with a noun.
Smyth, Greek Grammar, 1753. Other equivalents of passive forms are ἔχειν, τυγχάνειν, λαμβάνειν, used with a substantive of like meaning with the active verb: ὄνομα ἔχειν = ὀνομάζεσθαι, συγγνώμην ἔχειν or συγγνώμης τυγχάνειν = συγγιγνώσκεσθαι, ἔπαινον λαμβάνειν or ἐπαίνου τυγχάνειν = ἐπαινεῖσθαι. So with middle deponents: αἰτίαν ἔχειν = αἰτιᾶσθαι.
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Re: ὁρμὴν ἔσχε

Postby daivid » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:28 pm

Markos wrote:
Qimmik wrote:ὁρμάω means "to set in motion," "to start up." Maybe "he got started" would do here.

Agreed. ἔχω can, among other things, create a paraphrastic passive with a noun.
Smyth, Greek Grammar, 1753. Other equivalents of passive forms are ἔχειν, τυγχάνειν, λαμβάνειν, used with a substantive of like meaning with the active verb: ὄνομα ἔχειν = ὀνομάζεσθαι, συγγνώμην ἔχειν or συγγνώμης τυγχάνειν = συγγιγνώσκεσθαι, ἔπαινον λαμβάνειν or ἐπαίνου τυγχάνειν = ἐπαινεῖσθαι. So with middle deponents: αἰτίαν ἔχειν = αἰτιᾶσθαι.


So ἔχω + noun derived from a noun can serve as the passive of that verb. Have I got that right? That's something I can get my head round. Thanks a lot. Too many cases apart and I start to drown.

Qimmik wrote:πρὸς μέρος -- the dictionary is really owly a guide as to the range of possible meanings a word can have. "To this purpose" might do here for a translation.

My last post on μέρος was a bit garbled. Once I digested it, your post made it very clear what μέρος is doing. Thanks very much.
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Re: ὁρμὴν ἔσχε

Postby Qimmik » Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:49 pm

So ἔχω + noun derived from a noun can serve as the passive of that verb.


I don't think you can rely on this as a general rule as a productive morphological process, but a noun + ἔχειν in some expressions is equivalent to a passive. In English, there are similar equivalences. For example, αἰτίαν ἔχειν = αἰτιᾶσθαι is somewhat like Engish "to take the blame" = "to be blamed". I don't think we would call this idiom a periphrastic passive. But it's worth noting how flexibly idiomatic Greek uses ἔχειν.

The aorist passive of ὁρμάω generally means "to set out."

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Smyth+grammar+815&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0007

I don't think that's what Polybius means here--in fact, Philip never did manage to set out for the east, since he was assassinated in 336. I think ὁρμὴν ἔσχε is closer to "he got started," a sort of middle, here.
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Re: ὁρμὴν ἔσχε

Postby Qimmik » Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:00 am

Maybe we could translate ὁρμὴν ἔσχε as "he got off his butt" (except that Philip was nothing if not energetically pro-active).
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Re: ὁρμὴν ἔσχε

Postby daivid » Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:17 pm

Qimmik wrote:Maybe we could translate ὁρμὴν ἔσχε as "he got off his butt" (except that Philip was nothing if not energetically pro-active).

Except when he was pissed :wink: . Perhaps 'picked himself up and threw himself into his next project' fits the context?

I will take on board your warning not to treat paraphrastic passive as a hard and fast rule but I am on the look out for other examples.
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Re: ὁρμὴν ἔσχε

Postby Markos » Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:45 am

daivid wrote: will take on board your warning not to treat paraphrastic passive as a hard and fast rule but I am on the look out for other examples.

Markos wrote:θερμασίαν εἴχομεν σήμερον καὶ εὐδίαν.

We are probably overthinking this, but θερμασίαν ἔιχομεν sort of means the same thing as ἐθερμαινόμεθα. Since, as Qimmik points out, this works with certain verbs in English as well, it probably has more to do with the nature of the underlying concepts of possession and the passive than with anything idiomatic about the Greek verb ἔχω. Since in each case the meanings of the ἔχω clauses in Smyth 1753 are transparently clear, I'm not sure we are in need of the construction he proposes, though I suppose it cannot hurt.
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