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Gal. 1:1 Θεοῦ Πατρὸς

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Gal. 1:1 Θεοῦ Πατρὸς

Postby Isaac Newton » Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:01 am

Let's print out the verse:

Παῦλος ἀπόστολος, οὐκ ἀπ’ ἀνθρώπων οὐδὲ δι’ ἀνθρώπου ἀλλὰ διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ καὶ Θεοῦ Πατρὸς τοῦ ἐγείραντος αὐτὸν ἐκ νεκρῶν,


Most translations render [ bold] above as "God the Father." For example,

New International Version

Paul, an apostle--sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead--



However this is an ungrammatical translation since the bold English expression above ("God the Father") is one of essential predication (i.e. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit) rather than of identity (i.e. God = Father).

Yet the expression Θεοῦ Πατρὸς is one where we have two nouns in simple apposition. In other words this construction indicates an identical exchange between both nouns. The mathematical formulas of A=B, B=A are thus applicable in this instance. To put it in another way, Θεοῦ is not predicating or attributing something to Πατρὸς but rather it is identifying him as such. So the correct translation is as follows:



Paul, that is, the apostle --sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and by God, that is, the Father who raised him from the dead--


--

In this regard Darby Bible Translation comes closest to an accurate translation by bracketing the article "the".

Paul, apostle, not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God [the] Father who raised him from among [the] dead,
καὶ ὑμεῖς τὸ χρῖσμα ὃ ἐλάβετε ἀπ’ αὐτοῦ μένει ἐν ὑμῖν, καὶ οὐ χρείαν ἔχετε ἵνα τις διδάσκῃ ὑμᾶς·
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Re: Gal. 1:1 Θεοῦ Πατρὸς

Postby jeidsath » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:20 am

We're reading ΠΡΟΣ ΓΑΛΑΤΑΣ in my small group and I'm attempting it in the Greek (for language learning purposes). That spot was hard for me. I think that I mentally parsed it as:

...διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ καὶ θεοῦ[,] πατρὸς τοῦ ἐγείραντος...

But I think that's wrong. I believe that I wanted the τοῦ to be a τούτου or another Ἰησοῦ. Maybe Markos can comment? I'm rather confused by the τοῦ there. Otherwise, the sense the sentence is entirely clear.

I notice that when Paul starts his letters, he seems to like to do this thing where the final part of the last thought becomes the starting point for the new thought. It reminds me of a (very extemporaneous) preacher that I heard once. I can't help but think of that preacher when I read Paul. He is dictating a letter to people who have heard his trademark preaching style, and now he's using that style to say "this is Paul." Or maybe closer to Παῦλος εν τῷ οἴκῳ ἐστίν.
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Re: Gal. 1:1 Θεοῦ Πατρὸς

Postby jaihare » Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:08 am

jeidsath wrote:We're reading ΠΡΟΣ ΓΑΛΑΤΑΣ in my small group and I'm attempting it in the Greek (for language learning purposes). That spot was hard for me. I think that I mentally parsed it as:

...διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ καὶ θεοῦ[,] πατρὸς τοῦ ἐγείραντος...

But I think that's wrong. I believe that I wanted the τοῦ to be a τούτου or another Ἰησοῦ. Maybe Markos can comment? I'm rather confused by the τοῦ there. Otherwise, the sense the sentence is entirely clear.

I notice that when Paul starts his letters, he seems to like to do this thing where the final part of the last thought becomes the starting point for the new thought. It reminds me of a (very extemporaneous) preacher that I heard once. I can't help but think of that preacher when I read Paul. He is dictating a letter to people who have heard his trademark preaching style, and now he's using that style to say "this is Paul." Or maybe closer to Παῦλος εν τῷ οἴκῳ ἐστίν.


The phrase τοῦ ἐγείραντος is an aorist participle in the genitive, in agreement with θεοῦ πατρός, which is part of the compound object of the preposition διά. The nominative of this participle would be ὁ ἐγείρας (as we see in 2 Cor. 4.14 – ὁ ἐγείρας τὸν Ἰησοῦν). The participle could not appear in this situation without the article, since it's functioning as a substantive in apposition to θεοῦ πατρός. You should translate it as "who" or "the one who" together with the participle – "the one who raised."

Παῦλος ἀπόστολος, οὐκ ἀπ’ ἀνθρώπων οὐδὲ δι’ ἀνθρώπου ἀλλὰ διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ καὶ θεοῦ πατρὸς τοῦ ἐγείραντος αὐτὸν ἐκ νεκρῶν [Gal. 1.1]

"Paul – an apostle, not from men nor through man but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised him from the dead."

I can't understand why you would want to replace τοῦ with τούτου. What do you think that might do for the passage?

As for the meaning of the passage, it seems that this is Paul's first jab against those who would claim that he received his apostleship from the leaders in Jerusalem. Several times in this book he refers to them as οἱ δοκοῦσί τι εἶναι, "those who appear to be something." He claims that the apostles in Jerusalem added nothing to his message and that he received his gospel directly by revelation of Jesus. It was important for him to assert his independence from those who were considered to be pillars in Jerusalem, and in the opening of the letter he takes his first step in asserting that independence, stating that he was not sent from men (the elders and apostles in Jerusalem) or through man (and if he had been ordained by some apostle for his ministry) but only through Jesus and God.
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ὁ μὲν Παῦλος τοὺς ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις μαθητὰς τὴν χωρὶς νόμου δικαιοσύνην τὴν ἐν Χριστῷ ἐδίδασκεν, οἱ δ᾿ ἄλλοι ἀπόστολοι τοὺς ἀνθρώπους ἐδίδασκον τηρεῖν τὸν θεῖον νόμον τὸν χειρὶ Μωϋσέως δοθέντα.
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Re: Gal. 1:1 Θεοῦ Πατρὸς

Postby jeidsath » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:14 am

I did not to mean to suggest that I had any problem with the authorized translation. I meant to describe an ephemeral mental process as I read the passage. A difficulty related to natural flow; it is a problem either with me or the text. I'm not fluent enough to tell which yet, but it is most likely that the problem is with me. No doubt a 1st century reading hearing that text read aloud would not have to do any mental gymnastics to reparse it.

The question is good because it did get me to search the concordance. In mid-first century usage in the church, when did "θεοῦ πατρὸς" first appear and why? I notice that another phrase seems to occur much more often, especially in the earlier parts of the NT: "θεοῦ πατρὸς ἡμῶν." We even have an example just two versus past the one under consideration in Ga 1:3. Are the two phrases related? Is the origin of the first a shortening of the second? Or are the two phrases independent, with the first being a growth of early Christian vocabulary intended to express theological ideas surrounding God's and Christ's identity? Or would that be an anachronism this early in the Church's history?
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Re: Gal. 1:1 Θεοῦ Πατρὸς

Postby Isaac Newton » Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:10 am

jeidsath wrote:I did not to mean to suggest that I had any problem with the authorized translation. I meant to describe an ephemeral mental process as I read the passage. A difficulty related to natural flow; it is a problem either with me or the text. I'm not fluent enough to tell which yet, but it is most likely that the problem is with me. No doubt a 1st century reading hearing that text read aloud would not have to do any mental gymnastics to reparse it.

The question is good because it did get me to search the concordance. In mid-first century usage in the church, when did "θεοῦ πατρὸς" first appear and why? I notice that another phrase seems to occur much more often, especially in the earlier parts of the NT: "θεοῦ πατρὸς ἡμῶν." We even have an example just two versus past the one under consideration in Ga 1:3. Are the two phrases related? Is the origin of the first a shortening of the second? Or are the two phrases independent, with the first being a growth of early Christian vocabulary intended to express theological ideas surrounding God's and Christ's identity? Or would that be an anachronism this early in the Church's history?


How would the expression θεοῦ πατρὸς or θεοῦ πατρὸς ἡμῶν express "theological ideas surrounding Christ's identity" ?
καὶ ὑμεῖς τὸ χρῖσμα ὃ ἐλάβετε ἀπ’ αὐτοῦ μένει ἐν ὑμῖν, καὶ οὐ χρείαν ἔχετε ἵνα τις διδάσκῃ ὑμᾶς·
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Re: Gal. 1:1 Θεοῦ Πατρὸς

Postby jeidsath » Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:53 am

Christians started referring to God in ways that the Jews didn't (or not as frequently). Maybe they thought they meant something by it? "Father God" and "God our Father" are expressive terms.

By the way, I see what got me tripped up in reading this verse in March (4 months into my Greek voyage). The πατρός looks like a nominative, but is of course a genitive.

Still, I'm not a big fan of the grammar-heavy discussions that seem to be going on at this board. I think that we all need to get to the place where we can read Greek like a newspaper before we can begin those sorts of discussions. Crawl before you walk, etc. I have been working fairly hard for 10 months now, and I'm still at the point where I only get about 80% of the meaning of a text before breaking out a dictionary (and that's with easy texts like the NT, Septuagint, or Plato and Xenophon). I feel like I have a very long way before I can talk with any confidence about grammar minutiae. I still have trouble telling the imperfects from the aorists a lot of the time.

My guess is that what we need to spend a lot more time analyzing (or I need to, anyway) are the easier texts. The visual and active Gospel stories, for example. And in quantity. That's how to boost language skills.
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Re: Gal. 1:1 Θεοῦ Πατρὸς

Postby Isaac Newton » Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:26 am

Hi jeidsath,

jeidsath wrote:Christians started referring to God in ways that the Jews didn't (or not as frequently). Maybe they thought they meant something by it? "Father God" and "God our Father" are expressive terms.

By the way, I see what got me tripped up in reading this verse in March (4 months into my Greek voyage). The πατρός looks like a nominative, but is of course a genitive.

Still, I'm not a big fan of the grammar-heavy discussions that seem to be going on at this board. I think that we all need to get to the place where we can read Greek like a newspaper before we can begin those sorts of discussions. Crawl before you walk, etc. I have been working fairly hard for 10 months now, and I'm still at the point where I only get about 80% of the meaning of a text before breaking out a dictionary (and that's with easy texts like the NT, Septuagint, or Plato and Xenophon). I feel like I have a very long way before I can talk with any confidence about grammar minutiae. I still have trouble telling the imperfects from the aorists a lot of the time.

My guess is that what we need to spend a lot more time analyzing (or I need to, anyway) are the easier texts. The visual and active Gospel stories, for example. And in quantity. That's how to boost language skills.


Thanks for your post..Are you aware that Πατρὸς is in simple apposition to Θεοῦ in Gal. 1:1 ?
καὶ ὑμεῖς τὸ χρῖσμα ὃ ἐλάβετε ἀπ’ αὐτοῦ μένει ἐν ὑμῖν, καὶ οὐ χρείαν ἔχετε ἵνα τις διδάσκῃ ὑμᾶς·
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Re: Gal. 1:1 Θεοῦ Πατρὸς

Postby jeidsath » Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:47 pm

Oh Isaac, I cried a tear for you, having read your comment!
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Re: Gal. 1:1 Θεοῦ Πατρὸς

Postby mwh » Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:56 pm

So, another old Isaac Newton thread, exhumed by Isaac Newton. You know where he's going. The verse is to be used to expose Trinitarianism as false. It's as if we were still in the 4th century.

People with a desire to thrash out Arianism vs. Trinitarianism from scratch, this thread is for you. Or any of Isaac's threads. More fun, I would think, and unquestionably more profitable, to study the original christology wars more consequentially fought out in the 4th-century councils.

Anyway, for what it's worth: According to Paul here, Jesus is the Christ, and God is the Father who lifted him from the dead. That's it. Theologians can take it from there.

Once they've settled that, maybe we can move on to the really burning issue: how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
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Re: Gal. 1:1 Θεοῦ Πατρὸς

Postby Isaac Newton » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:01 pm

Hi mvh,

mwh wrote:So, another old Isaac Newton thread, exhumed by Isaac Newton. You know where he's going. The verse is to be used to expose Trinitarianism as false. It's as if we were still in the 4th century.

People with a desire to thrash out Arianism vs. Trinitarianism from scratch, this thread is for you. Or any of Isaac's threads. More fun, I would think, and unquestionably more profitable, to study the original christology wars more consequentially fought out in the 4th-century councils.

Anyway, for what it's worth: According to Paul here, Jesus is the Christ, and God is the Father who lifted him from the dead.



Correct.


That's it. Theologians can take it from there.


No, not so fast, we're inspecting the grammar of Θεοῦ Πατρὸς .

Question: Is Πατρὸς in simple apposition to Θεοῦ in Gal. 1:1 ?


Once they've settled that, maybe we can move on to the really burning issue: how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.


How exactly is this relevant ? We're discussing Greek grammar here, not theology or angels.
καὶ ὑμεῖς τὸ χρῖσμα ὃ ἐλάβετε ἀπ’ αὐτοῦ μένει ἐν ὑμῖν, καὶ οὐ χρείαν ἔχετε ἵνα τις διδάσκῃ ὑμᾶς·
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Re: Gal. 1:1 Θεοῦ Πατρὸς

Postby Isaac Newton » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:02 pm

jeidsath wrote:Oh Isaac, I cried a tear for you, having read your comment!


Question; Is Πατρὸς in simple apposition to Θεοῦ in Gal. 1:1 ? Yes or no ?
καὶ ὑμεῖς τὸ χρῖσμα ὃ ἐλάβετε ἀπ’ αὐτοῦ μένει ἐν ὑμῖν, καὶ οὐ χρείαν ἔχετε ἵνα τις διδάσκῃ ὑμᾶς·
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Re: Gal. 1:1 Θεοῦ Πατρὸς

Postby mwh » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:17 pm

"Question: Is Πατρὸς in simple apposition to Θεοῦ in Gal. 1:1?""

But Isaac, you've already told us it is. So now we know.
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Re: Gal. 1:1 Θεοῦ Πατρὸς

Postby Isaac Newton » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:37 pm

mwh wrote:"Question: Is Πατρὸς in simple apposition to Θεοῦ in Gal. 1:1?""

But Isaac, you've already told us it is. So now we know.


Notice he doesn't want to answer the question.
καὶ ὑμεῖς τὸ χρῖσμα ὃ ἐλάβετε ἀπ’ αὐτοῦ μένει ἐν ὑμῖν, καὶ οὐ χρείαν ἔχετε ἵνα τις διδάσκῃ ὑμᾶς·
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