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Κρίτων, long ι?

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Κρίτων, long ι?

Postby Lavrentivs » Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:09 pm

Don't know whether this name has a long ι, or how generally to go about finding vowel quantities in names -- ?
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Re: Κρίτων, long ι?

Postby Qimmik » Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:35 pm

It's probably short. The ι in κριτής is short:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkrith%2Fs

(In the on-line version of LSJ, the symbol ^ after alpha, iota or upsilon indicates a short vowel; the symbol _, a long vowel.)

And the ι in the root of the verb κρίν- of the verb κρίνω is short, as the future stem κρινῶ indicates.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkri%2Fnw

(The present stem, κρίνω, is from κρίν+y+ω; the iota is lengthened by compensation for loss of the suffix -y-.)
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Re: Κρίτων, long ι?

Postby Paul Derouda » Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:55 pm

For online LSJ, I'd recommend now either TLG (which links directly to the quoted passages) or Logeion (which handily displays several other dictionaries at the same time). Both display syllable length correctly and I'm also under the impression that both have been somehow improved/corrected vs. Perseus LSJ.
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Re: Κρίτων, long ι?

Postby MiguelM » Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:20 am

Qimmik wrote:And the ι in the root of the verb κρίν- of the verb κρίνω is short, as the future stem κρινῶ indicates.


I may be missing something obvious, but how does the future κρινῶ indicate such a thing? Thanks—
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Re: Κρίτων, long ι?

Postby Qimmik » Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:20 am

The present stem κρίνω was formed from the root κρίν, with short ι, plus the suffix -y-, which disappeared in Greek. To compensate for the loss of -y-, the ι of the present stem was lengthened. Smyth 519:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Smyth+grammar+519&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0007 (ιγλιδε means the ι glide, -y-. The on-line version of Smyth is messed up.)

The ι of the future stem, however, was not lengthened. The future stem was formed by adding --εσ- directly to the root, in this case κρίν- with short ι. Smyth 535:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Smyth+grammar+535&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0007 (-εσόε- means -εσ- + personal endings in either ό or ε, as the hard copy of Smyth explains.)
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Re: Κρίτων, long ι?

Postby Qimmik » Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:32 pm

On second thought, if Κρίτων is formed from the present stem, then the ί would be long. I have to admit I don't know. Maybe I should just shut up.

Someone might try looking at this reverse list of Attic personal names to see if they can find a name ending in -ων that is clearly based either on a verbal present stem or a root with short vowel, where the present stem has been modified due to the loss of the -y- suffix. I didn't find a clear example, but I didn't look very hard.

http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk/online/downloads/v2arev.pdf

(By the way, Κρίτων isn't a present participle.)
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Re: Κρίτων, long ι?

Postby Scribo » Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:54 pm

The iota is long, yeah, in the present tense. You get dialectical variants in /ei/ in various inscriptions and we might go so far so as to postulate a PIE form like *kre(i) or something. There are shifts in accentuation and length depending on root aspect it seems. You can also look at it in metrical positions. It can be hard to tell and the rules aren't exactly rules.

Oh, ok, so the name. Well it probably comes from Κριτός (so no resonant stuck in like the present), like the female Κρίτυλλα (you don't forget a horrid name like that!) so we can probably approach it from various ways. I don't know, I'm having a think, unwilling to lurch forward with the first thing my gaster conjures.

EDIT: For what it's worth, I kind of feel its from the perfective aspect and therefore short but there's a very good chance I'll shortly remember something I ought not to have forgotten and change my mind.
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Re: Κρίτων, long ι?

Postby Qimmik » Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:09 pm

Update: Lewis and Short, via Logeion, provides an answer, but it's wrong:

http://logeion.uchicago.edu/index.html#Crito

L&S marks the -i- of the name Crito as long (I confirmed this by looking at the print version), and cites Martial 11.60.6, which reads:

quod sanare Criton, non quod Hygia potest

"Phlogis has the unbridled sexual attraction that could extend old Priam's 'leather' and wouldn't let old Pelias be old, that everyone wants his girl to have, that Crito can heal but not Hygeia. Chione, by contrast, doesn't 'feel the work' and you'd think she was absent or made of marble . . . "

Here, however, -i- must be short to fit the pentameter.

I don't understand the reference here. Criton seems to be Statilius Criton, the Trajan-era doctor from Asia Minor, author of a treatise on drugs, but I think the name is probably the same as that of the 5th-century Athenian from Socrates' circle.
Last edited by Qimmik on Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Κρίτων, long ι?

Postby Qimmik » Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:16 pm

Search for ΚΡΕΙΤΩΝ on the Greek Personal Names website yields this:

http://clas-lgpn2.classics.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/lgpn_search.cgi
Last edited by Qimmik on Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Κρίτων, long ι?

Postby Scribo » Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:17 pm

Perfect. All I've managed to turn up since is the Cretan variant krinter for kriths and therefore reasoned that the lack of resonant would make it possible/probable for /i/ to be long. Nice, hadn't even thought of checking Latin. :)
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Re: Κρίτων, long ι?

Postby Qimmik » Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:22 pm

The iota in Κριτός is short, isn't it?

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkrito%2Fs

Well, that was fun! An exercise in tracking down hidden quantity.

What a waste of time.
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Re: Κρίτων, long ι?

Postby Scribo » Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:26 pm

In Kritos it is short, yes, I was looking also at krinter (judge, Cretan variant, Gortyn) and wondering if the nasal could drop out and the /i/ lengthens by compensation in other variants.

EDIT: Also, come on, is time enjoyed ever truly time wasted? Given my absolutely atrocious skills in time management (as in up all night before dissertation hand in typing out bibliography and fixing stuff sort of thing) that may not totally be a rhetorical question on my part lol.
Last edited by Scribo on Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Κρίτων, long ι?

Postby Paul Derouda » Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:26 pm

Chantraine's Dictionnaire étymologique de la langue grecque says indeed that Κρίτων is formed from Κριτός. So I suppose makes the i short.

Btw, do you know whether Chantraine shows systematically whether α ι υ are long, or just in the headings and otherwise just occasionnally?
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Re: Κρίτων, long ι?

Postby Qimmik » Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:49 pm

"come on, is time enjoyed ever truly time wasted?"

Well, I have to admit it was fun to find an error, albeit a tiny one, in L&S.
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Re: Κρίτων, long ι?

Postby Scribo » Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:56 pm

Well I haven't turned anything else up and so apparently Chantraine backs me up that it is < Kritos and short. Which also means that the Gortyn variant is an intrusive infix on the side of things.

Ha Qimmik, I used to read that dictionary religiously when I was younger. God knows what was wrong with me. In your face L&S. Get better formatting.
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Re: Κρίτων, long ι?

Postby Qimmik » Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:05 am

Ha Qimmik, I used to read that dictionary religiously when I was younger.


In my day, pre-OLD, L&S was the only reliable Latin dictionary around. It's still good, and I usually turn to L&S first because the OLD is clumsy to consult. The L&S cut-off date is later than the OLD.
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Re: Κρίτων, long ι?

Postby Scribo » Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:45 am

I should of course point out I now rarely read dictionaries for fun. I mean I've been re-reading Marione's Tutti i verbi Greci and my lexical notes on the Odyssey at bed time but I'm totally reformed bar one or two frequency/thematic dictionary binges. :lol:
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Re: Κρίτων, long ι?

Postby Qimmik » Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:03 am

I have an embarrassing confession to make: I use the Intermediate Liddell & Scott and the Elementary Lewis and Short most of the time. I find these adequate to my needs about 97% of the time, and rarely have recourse to the bigger dictionaries. The smaller ones are much easier to manipulate, especially in bed or on vacation. My copies date from around 1960 and by now are disintegrating. They also have scribblings from my adolescent self. I have an extra copy of each in reserve for the moment when they are no longer usable. When reading Homer, I turn to Cunliffe, of course.
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