John W. wrote:My own translation reads:
'I shall pass over our and their achievements in war, by which the various parts of the empire were obtained, or when either we ourselves or our fathers zealously repelled any barbarian or Hellene foe who attacked us, since I do not wish to speak at undue length among those who are familiar with these matters;
Qimmik wrote:John has chosen the Alberti text as the basis for his translation.
John W. wrote:Hope both your readings of Thucydides are going well.
pster wrote:Well, I didn't do much Greek for the last month. The holidays and the flu and possible litigation and moving to the country kept me largely unproductive. But now I am getting back into it. Moreover, because I am going to buy a TV and invest in a TV package with 100 foreign language channels, I am thinking that I won't need to invest as much study time in the living languages. Which theoretically will free up more time for Attic. And so I am actually officially giving Attic priority for the forseeable future. But, I am highly doubtful that it will ever be "going well".
Qimmik wrote:Here's another thought. In the preceding sentence we have τοῖς τε τῶν δήμων προστάταις τοὺς Ἀθηναίους ἐπάγεσθαι καὶ τοῖς ὀλίγοις τοὺς Λακεδαιμονίους. The parallelism between ἐπάγεσθαι and ἐπαγωγαὶ suggests to me that ἑκατέροις is parallel to τοῖς τε τῶν δήμων προστάταις and τοῖς ὀλίγοις, and so refers to the leaders of the factions, not to the A. and the L.
Qimmik wrote:I posted some additional caustic remarks by Dionysius of Halicarnassus on Thucydides on January 16 in this thread.
Qimmik wrote:Dionysius' remarks show that Thucydides was difficult even to native speakers of Greek with full command of the classical language.
With αὐτούς immediately preceding πολεμουμένων, it strikes me that αὐτῶν is probably the understood subject of πολεμουμένων, i.e., the L. and the A. No need to repeat the word when it has just been written (though in a different case). And the contrast is between ἐν μὲν εἰρήνῃ and πολεμουμένων δὲ. I think this must refer to the war between the A. and the L.
Since you've not expressly commented on it, I take it you see no merit in Hude's idea that πολεμουμένων could be neuter, and mean 'with things in a state of war'? The nearest parallel I can find for that would be 3.6.2, καὶ τὰ μὲν περὶ Μυτιλήνην οὕτως ἐπολεμεῖτο, but I don't know if this is enough of a basis for taking it as neuter at 3.82.1.
I take your point re Dionysius - and I believe Cicero somewhere comments to the effect that the speeches in Thucydides are sometimes almost unintelligible.
Is there another commentary for Book II that is similar to Marchant, ie a student commentary?
Also, besides the funeral oration, what are your favorite speeches, if you have any?
Qimmik wrote:On a quick glance, Rusten's edition of Book 2 actually seems to provide more help on linguistic questions than Marchant's edition of Book 1. Rusten's discussions of historical and literary matters seems to be aimed at a higher level than Marchant, though.
pster wrote: And how many commentaries can boast, "Les cartes des tomes II, III et IV permettent en outre de situer précisément l'action. Le dernier volume est encore enrichi d'un précieux appendice topographique"?
John W. wrote:
By 'the two upheavals in Book III', do you mean the one at Notium and the one at Corcyra? I don't have a chronology for these, I'm afraid, beyond the facts that Thucydides (a) recounts both of them as happening in the summer of the fifth year of the war, and (b) describes the one at Notium (briefly) before the one on Corcyra (Notium 3.35; Corcyra 3.70-85).
John W. wrote:
Thucydides is clearly using Corcyra as his 'paradigmatic' example of stasis, i.e. the single instance of such a phenomenon which he describes in detail.
John W. wrote:
Your point about 'comparison classes' following some of the examples is interesting - would that then mean that the nearest English equivalent would be something like 'the first of its kind'?
John W. wrote:It is perhaps worth noting that, in the list of examples at the start of my post yesterday, only one has the adjective in the dative, and so agreeing with the article - 4.105.1 (ἐν τοῖς πρώτοις). Here the meaning seems fairly clear: Thucydides is talking about himself, and is surely describing himself as 'one of the most influential men on the mainland' (rather than 'the most influential man ...'). It's the examples with the adjective in the nominative which are unclear ...
John W. wrote:
As far as I'm aware, with the single exception of ἐν τοῖς πρώτοις at 4.105.1, all the other examples have adjectives in the nominative.
One further point: it's perhaps worth noting that at 3.17.1 the context does make it clear that the meaning of ἐν τοῖς πλεῖσται etc. is 'one of the largest fleets', rather than 'the largest fleet'. (This section is square-bracketed by the OCT, but not by Alberti, and contains some other textual difficulties.)
Qimmik wrote:Sorry to be unhelpful: that's all I have to say at this point.
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