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Question Concerning Lingva Latina: Capitvlvm Octavvm

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Question Concerning Lingva Latina: Capitvlvm Octavvm

Postby Prolixus Valens » Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:18 pm

Hi all, :)

I am new to textkit, though I've been lurking for a while.

I have recently started to learn Latin on my own, using Lingua Latina. I am reading each chapter once a day for a week (full seven days), except maybe twice on the first day of the week. I also try to listen to the audio for the chapter a few times during the week. I only do the pensa about two or three times at the end of the week. If I have time, I try to transcribe the whole chapter, including pensa, on the last day of the week.

I have a few questions, the most important of which concerns chapter eight of Lingua Latina.

Lingva Latina: Chapter Eight — Line 45

When Medus and Lydia see the shop, and Albinus greets them, why does it use the masculine 'eos' (Albinus eos salutat)? Is it because Medus is listed first "Medus et Lydia" or "Medus cum Lydia" (I don't remember which), the masculine is the default when dealing with more than one gender, or something else I haven't thought of.

I do have a couple more questions about L. L. in general. I can't seem to keep up, in understanding, with the audio recording of the chapter. I have to pause the audio after nearly every sentence to process the information. I do try to avoid translating mentally. Is there anything that would help me with this?

Also, I've found that I can't really compose Latin similar to that of the chapter I'm working through without great difficulty. Is it normal for it to be painstakingly laborious to compose sentences so early in my studies (2 months in now)? My level of composition seems to linger at about the level of five chapters previous. Even doing Pensum C is difficult, not because of lack of vocabulary, but because of confusion with declension and pronouns. Before using Lingua Latina I did use a song to somewhat learn the noun declensions, but I still can't decline fast mentally. And I never can seem to get the correct pronoun (the correct declension is right out). Should I just press on with my method of study, hoping that these things will come with experience in reading, or amend the process somehow?

Also, I read somewhere on this forum that the student should try to read a Latin text (I believe Cicero's Academica was suggested) while doing Lingua Latina. How should this be done? Should one just read, looking up words in the dictionary as they go along? Or should one read a portion first, then look up things not understood, followed by rereading the portion in Latin? Or should one read without looking things up, just to get a feel for the language?

Finally, should one combine L. L. study with Adler and, if so, how? Two chapters a week to finish around the same time as L. L.? One chapter per week?

I'm sorry about having so many questions. Any help at all would be greatly appreciated! :?
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Re: Question Concerning Lingva Latina: Capitvlvm Octavvm

Postby Prolixus Valens » Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:36 pm

Nobody can help me? :(
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Re: Question Concerning Lingva Latina: Capitvlvm Octavvm

Postby Bedell » Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:50 pm

Prolixus Valens wrote:
Lingva Latina: Chapter Eight — Line 45

When Medus and Lydia see the shop, and Albinus greets them, why does it use the masculine 'eos' (Albinus eos salutat)? Is it because Medus is listed first "Medus et Lydia" or "Medus cum Lydia" (I don't remember which), the masculine is the default when dealing with more than one gender, or something else I haven't thought of.


Since no one else has answered yet (but I'm sure answers will come - when you posted Christmas was coming!) I'll try. I haven't got any further than Capitulum Octavum myself.

My understanding of the use of the masculine pronoun is because it refers to members of both sexes. It didn't strike me as odd as I have seen that kind of thing in other languages.

You might say:
eam + eam = eas
eum +eum = eos
eum + eam = eos
eam + eum = eos.

Masculine bias. There was a lot of it around. :)

Hope that helps.
nothing should arouse more suspicion than a cross-party consensus - Antidemocritus fl. 2010
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Re: Question Concerning Lingva Latina: Capitvlvm Octavvm

Postby adrianus » Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:53 pm

Modo apparuit in foro, Prolixe, tua quaestio priùs abscondita, ut imaginor, si a te epistula prima (nisi quidem praeterita).
Your question has only just appeared in the forum because it was previously kept back, I imagine, if it was your first post. (Or maybe it was, indeed, just missed.)

Ut dicis, "eos" sic significat: "eum et eam".

Post scriptum

Jam responit Bedell.

Bedell has replied first.

Personally, I've no good advice about studying Latin, apart from finding a way you find interesting and like. You'll make lots of errors, of course, and you'll learn from them. Enjoy the pain.
De studio latinae, inutile consilium meum, separatim viam studendi invenias quae placet et tibi curae est. Frequenter errabis et erratis docebis. Dolore fruaris.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Question Concerning Lingva Latina: Capitvlvm Octavvm

Postby Iacobus de Indianius » Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:30 am

Greetings Prolixus,

Let me try to help you with some of your other questions since it the issue with the masculine pn has been answered.

First of all, listening comprehension, when it comes to new languages, takes time to develop. I never did any audio recordings when I started out, but given my experiences with Spanish and German, I bet you will gain better comprehension after a few months. It might help if you read a chapter once or twice before you listen to the audio.

Second, composition is difficult. I wouldn't worry too much about it at this point. It's best to start out slow at the beginning and focus on the basic grammar. After you have worked through the basics and some primary texts, pick up a composition text, like Bradley's Arnold. A textbook like this will explain the rules of composition in such a way that you will avoid bad habits, i.e. writing in Latin as you would in English.

Finally, I wouldn't worry about reading a primary text, like Cicero, at this point. Stick with Lingua Latina, which is an invaluable resource. I would also supplement your studies with Wheelocks' Latin. Wheelock's is heavy on grammar not on reading. It explains all of the various declensions, conjugations, and basic grammar in a very accessible way. Orberg also has a reader you can purchase for the early chapters of LLPSI. There is another reader, Fabulae Syrae, for the latter chapters.

I learned Latin outside of the the classroom too. It's slow going, but things will click after awhile (2 years for me). Keep up the good work.
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Re: Question Concerning Lingva Latina: Capitvlvm Octavvm

Postby Qimmik » Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:52 pm

Incidentally--and this is a very trivial and pendantic comment--the capital (upper-case) form of the letter is V, but the minuscule (lower-case) form should really be u, not v.

In antiquity, Latin had only a single letter representing both the vowel /u/ and the consonant (semi-vowel) /v/. In ancient inscriptions and in manuscripts surviving from late antiquity, both of these sounds are represented by the symbol V.

Minuscule forms of letters evolved in the "dark ages" (600-800 CE) out of ancient Roman cursive writing, and by the Carolingian period (cir. 800), the minuscule form corresponding to the capital V was u, which represented both the consonant and the vowel.

In the Renaissance and particularly in the 17th century, printers began to distinguish between the consonant V/v and the semi-vowel U/u in both Latin texts and those written in modern languages. However, this orthographic distinction was unknown in antiquity, so some Latin texts printed today don't distinguish between the consonant and the vowel, in order to more closely conform to ancient practice, using V/u for both sounds. However, it's a little odd to see lower-case v representing the vowel.

A similar evolution affected the ancient Roman symbol I, which also doubled as a vowel and a consonant, with printers adopting I/i to represent the vowel and J/j to represent the consonant in the 17th century, but it's very unusual today to see contemporary editions of classical Latin authors printed with J/j.

Early editions of Shakespeare still use V/u without distinguishing between U/u and V/v, and I/i to represent both the English j-sound and the English vowel i.
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Re: Question Concerning Lingva Latina: Capitvlvm Octavvm

Postby dlb » Sat Jan 18, 2014 2:53 pm

I agree with what the other posters have stated and I'll add two more comments:
You need to suplement your reading of LLPSI with a grammar book and, secondly, take the time to enjoy the process of learning - can you apply the vocabulary from study to the real world? That is where the fun begins.
Deus me ducet, non ratio.
Observito Quam Educatio Melius Est.
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Re: Question Concerning Lingva Latina: Capitvlvm Octavvm

Postby Prolixus Valens » Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:46 pm

Bedell wrote:You might say:
eam + eam = eas
eum +eum = eos
eum + eam = eos
eam + eum = eos.

Masculine bias. There was a lot of it around. :)

Hope that helps.


Yeah! That's exactly what I assumed. I needed confirmation though because I don't want to plant an improperly understood concept and allow it to bear fruit, especially this early in my studies. I'm noticing a similar thing with the accusative singular personal pronoun in chapter 2 or 3 of one of the ancillary books, where it says something like "Quem Iulia vocat" when only females are present in the room. I would expect "quam" if the masculine were not the default in such situations.

Thanks, it did help. It helped about 2 metric tons.

Qimmik wrote:Incidentally--and this is a very trivial and pendantic comment--the capital (upper-case) form of the letter is V, but the minuscule (lower-case) form should really be u, not v.


That makes sense, and I had been wondering about it. So thanks for letting me know. Would the first 'v' in "octavvm" be consonantal then? Is it pronounced 'oc/ta/vum', 'oc/ta/wum', or 'oc/ta/u/um'?

Thanks for your helpful point; however, honestly, I'm not going to get real bogged down in minutia at this point, though curiosity is present regarding this detail.

Iacobus de Indianius wrote:Greetings Prolixus,

Let me try to help you with some of your other questions...


Thanks for your greetings and warm words of encouragement. So that I might not need to purchase another text, since I just spent many hundreds on Latin, Greek, Hebrew, German, French, Akkadian, and Egyptian language materials, can Adler's latin fill the role of a composition text? I have a reprint of Adler and plan to use it alongside Lingua Latina.

About Wheelock's, I did try to use that text; however, I quickly realized that I was decoding and verb hunting, rather than understanding. Consequently, I only made it through a few chapters "wherever the text delves into third declension". I'm hoping that Adler will fill this need for a grammar as well.

adrianus wrote: You'll make lots of errors, of course, and you'll learn from them. Enjoy the pain.


Yeah! I'm eager for the failings. I've noticed that these are how I learn best. :D

dlb wrote:[S]econdly, take the time to enjoy the process of learning - can you apply the vocabulary from study to the real world? That is where the fun begins.


I can do so, but only if I try real hard. But I really do want to be able to converse in Latin. I'm hoping that Adler (perhaps even Evan Milner) and Traupman will help in this regard.

Anybody That I Missed wrote:


I'm sorry if I missed responding to anybody. I'm on my iPad. Thank you all for your time and valuable comments.
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Re: Question Concerning Lingva Latina: Capitvlvm Octavvm

Postby Qimmik » Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:03 am

Would the first 'v' in "octavvm" be consonantal then?


Yes.

Is it pronounced 'oc/ta/vum', 'oc/ta/wum', or 'oc/ta/u/um'?


As best we can tell, it would have been pronounced in the classical period something like 'oc/ta/wum'. Eventually, it began to be pronounced 'oc/ta/vum'. It's difficult to pinpoint exactly when shifts like this occurred--and it probably occurred in popular speech before it did in elite pronunciation.
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Re: Question Concerning Lingva Latina: Capitvlvm Octavvm

Postby Prolixus Valens » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:40 am

Qimmik wrote:
As best we can tell, it would have been pronounced in the classical period something like 'oc/ta/wum'. Eventually, it began to be pronounced 'oc/ta/vum'. It's difficult to pinpoint exactly when shifts like this occurred--and it probably occurred in popular speech before it did in elite pronunciation.



Thanks very much.
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