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case with ou

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case with ou

Postby piro » Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:45 am

why translation done like that ?

Nestle Greek New Testament 1904
πολλοὶ ἐροῦσίν μοι ἐν ἐκείνῃ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ Κύριε Κύριε, οὐ τῷ σῷ ὀνόματι ἐπροφητεύσαμεν, καὶ τῷ σῷ ὀνόματι δαιμόνια ἐξεβάλομεν, καὶ τῷ σῷ ὀνόματι δυνάμεις πολλὰς ἐποιήσαμεν;

New International Version
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'

why not like that ?

My translation
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, we did not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles'
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Re: case with ou

Postby Qimmik » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:55 pm

I know very little about NT Greek, but if your translation were correct, we would expect the parallel verbs ἐξεβάλομεν and ἐποιήσαμεν to be linked by οὐδὲ, instead of καὶ.
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Re: case with ou

Postby Markos » Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:43 pm

Qimmik's observation is correct, plus the context makes clear that the οὐ is introducing a question expecting a positive answer, rather than forming a negative declarative statement. For the apostles certainly DID do the things in question.
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Re: case with ou

Postby Qimmik » Thu Jan 16, 2014 4:38 pm

Also, οὐ would normally be placed before the verb unless the intent was to contrast τῷ σῷ ὀνόματι with something else--you would expect ἀλλά or a similar word later on in the sentence: "not in your name, but rather [in the name of someone else, or in some other manner or for some other purpose]"

As Markos notes, οὐ at the beginning of a sentence is a typical way to introduce a yes/no question expecting a positive answer.
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Re: case with ou

Postby piro » Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:16 pm

Nestle Greek New Testament 1904
ὁ δὲ ἀκούσας εἶπεν Οὐ χρείαν ἔχουσιν οἱ ἰσχύοντες ἰατροῦ ἀλλ’ οἱ κακῶς ἔχοντες.

they don't have need

no problem here - negation in front of noun but concerns verb

there also -not prophesied in the name- could be

--------------------------

if negation to the name , then the sense can be changed -

we do prophesy but not in your name and drive out demons and perform miracles
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Re: case with ou

Postby Qimmik » Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:25 pm

Οὐ χρείαν ἔχουσιν οἱ ἰσχύοντες ἰατροῦ ἀλλ’ οἱ κακῶς ἔχοντες.

The negation applies to οἱ ἰσχύοντες, not to the verb, and we have ἀλλ’ to mark the contrast between οἱ ἰσχύοντες and οἱ κακῶς ἔχοντες.

"It's not healthy people who need a doctor--it's the ones in bad shape."

"we do prophesy but not in your name and drive out demons and perform miracles"

No, with the repetition of τῷ σῷ ὀνόματι, and with καὶ and not οὐδὲ, in order to turn this into an affirmative statement instead of a question, the translation would have to be "we do prophesy but not in your name, and we drive out demons in your name and we perform miracles in your name" -- which doesn't seem to make much sense.
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Re: case with ou

Postby piro » Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:34 pm

but strictly grammatically and only this phrase -can be translated

πολλοὶ ἐροῦσίν μοι ἐν ἐκείνῃ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ Κύριε Κύριε, οὐ τῷ σῷ ὀνόματι ἐπροφητεύσαμεν

we did not prophesied in your name .

then about the rest can be thought that who was rewriting omitted negation -it was clear to him
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Re: case with ou

Postby Qimmik » Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:39 pm

we did not prophesied in your name .
then about the rest can be thought that who was rewriting omitted negation -it was clear to him


Once again, the use of καὶ and not οὐδὲ to connect the verbs makes that interpretation impossible.
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Re: case with ou

Postby piro » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:38 pm

greek koine is people language which are not followed rules of grammar always

one more example - one negation and not repeated as it should be many times

Nestle Greek New Testament 1904
ἐπαχύνθη γὰρ ἡ καρδία τοῦ λαοῦ τούτου, καὶ τοῖς ὠσὶν βαρέως ἤκουσαν, καὶ τοὺς ὀφθαλμοὺς αὐτῶν ἐκάμμυσαν· μή ποτε ἴδωσιν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς καὶ τοῖς ὠσὶν ἀκούσωσιν καὶ τῇ καρδίᾳ συνῶσιν καὶ ἐπιστρέψωσιν, καὶ ἰάσομαι αὐτούς.

should be more than one negation - missing four times

so you are not right with translation of presented case in Mathew

where obviously negation should be -not necessary to repeat it
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Re: case with ou

Postby Markos » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:48 pm

piro wrote:Nestle Greek New Testament 1904
πολλοὶ ἐροῦσίν μοι ἐν ἐκείνῃ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ Κύριε Κύριε, οὐ τῷ σῷ ὀνόματι ἐπροφητεύσαμεν, καὶ τῷ σῷ ὀνόματι δαιμόνια ἐξεβάλομεν, καὶ τῷ σῷ ὀνόματι δυνάμεις πολλὰς ἐποιήσαμεν;

New International Version
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'

My translation
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, we did not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles'

Forget about the Greek, for the moment. Forget about the grammar. What would be the point of your translation? Why would people come to Jesus and tell Him that they did NOT do these things?
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Re: case with ou

Postby piro » Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:17 pm

confession to the Lord of our deeds

many christians know the fact they have to do everything in the name of Jesus Christ

and those are the deeds of God

one have to do Christ's deeds - prophesying and healing -otherwise one cannot be of Christ

here is the point of confession - because it is a sin -

New International Version
If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn't do it, it is sin for them.
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Re: case with ou

Postby Victor » Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:49 pm

Piro, you've come to the right place to get an explanation, and Qimmik has already given you one that makes perfect sense. If you choose to shut your ears to it and persist in unreason, we really can't help you.
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Re: case with ou

Postby piro » Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:52 am

what is perfect for you is not for me
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Re: case with ou

Postby Markos » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:09 am

piro wrote:confession to the Lord of our deeds

many christians know the fact they have to do everything in the name of Jesus Christ

and those are the deeds of God

one have to do Christ's deeds - prophesying and healing -otherwise one cannot be of Christ

here is the point of confession - because it is a sin -

Thanks for your response, piro. It allows us to see where you are coming from theologically.

What do you mean by "have to?" Are you saying that Christians who have never prophesied or healed will go to Hell? And how many exorcisms does one have to perform in order to meet your standard of being of Christ? Are we not saved by faith alone? Did the thief on the cross perform ANY miracles in Jesus' name? And yet Jesus promised him paradise because he confessed His name before he died.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in prophesy and exorcisms and healing and other miracles in Jesus' name, and I believe that, all things being equal, Christians should strive to do them. To not do so (or to not do enough is) one of the many sins of omissions in respect to which we have all fallen short of the glory of God. But sinners who believe that Jesus is Lord are saved.

Your interpretation strikes me as the opposite of what Jesus is saying. He is not condemning people who do not perform enough exorcisms. He is condemning people who perform exorcisms but don't have the heart of Christ.

piro wrote:...one more example - one negation and not repeated as it should be many times

Nestle Greek New Testament 1904
ἐπαχύνθη γὰρ ἡ καρδία τοῦ λαοῦ τούτου, καὶ τοῖς ὠσὶν βαρέως ἤκουσαν, καὶ τοὺς ὀφθαλμοὺς αὐτῶν ἐκάμμυσαν· μή ποτε ἴδωσιν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς καὶ τοῖς ὠσὶν ἀκούσωσιν καὶ τῇ καρδίᾳ συνῶσιν καὶ ἐπιστρέψωσιν, καὶ ἰάσομαι αὐτούς.

should be more than one negation - missing four times

so you are not right with translation of presented case in Mathew

where obviously negation should be -not necessary to repeat it

Sure, οὐ...καί and οὐ...οὐδέ can be used interchangeably. On this narrow point I would agree with you. The Greek grammar (just barely) makes your interpretation possible. It's the context and the theology that make it highly unlikely. It violates the rule of faith and would lead to a Gospel of works.
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Re: case with ou

Postby piro » Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:17 pm

totally not

Jesus said once - how many deeds i showed to you from my Father -for which one you want to stone me?

if in our life we don't see manifestations of Spirit and power of God - we cannot claim to be born from above

because being born process is washing of regeneration of Holy Spirit

and afterwards our spirit joined with Gods Spirit will do deeds in the name of Jesus

if not - nothing happened in our life

we have our own faith by which we cannot be saved - salvation through justification by faith of Jesus Christ

not human like we all have without power -in words only

and the kingdom of God in power not in words

if you don't have power drive away demons by Holy Spirit how you can claim you are born by Spirit?

to be son of God you have to have signs of sons of God

not your words

by faith nobody saved till salvation not received by faith and salvation is not faith but what you have to receive by faith

it means faith should be proved by God to be acceptable


-----------------------
It violates the rule of faith and would lead to a Gospel of works


Gospel is the works by faith of God not human

as it was said - you should have faith of God

and faith of God does miracles - first - birth spiritual
Last edited by piro on Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: case with ou

Postby John W. » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:42 pm

As someone with no religious axe to grind, might I offer one comment?

Surely context is important here (as everywhere). In Matthew 7.21 Jesus says: 'Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven ...' In 7.22 we appear to be given an example: 'Many will say to me on that day: 'Lord, Lord ...' etc. Now, it seems to me that these people must be among those referenced in 7.21 as seeking to enter the Kingdom of Heaven; if so, why on earth(!) would they say: 'Lord, Lord, we did not do X and Y in your name'? Surely, on the contrary, they would be adducing reasons why they should be allowed into Heaven, i.e. precisely because they had done certain things in Jesus' name.

I cannot therefore fathom what sense the original poster extracts from this passage, in context, on his interpretation - perhaps he would care to explain. Or am I missing something obvious?

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Re: case with ou

Postby piro » Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:53 am

yes i agree with you if to limit ourselves with idea that we should show our good works by faith

but God will show according to the translation given- you did noticeable and powerful deeds but you were missing in other things or fallen away later

this would work for me only in case if it would not be stated -
i never knew you

you cannot prophesy and other things do without knowledge of God

other wise their deeds in the name of God should be proved false

then tell me how you can do false things in the name of God?

only telling lies by name of God like prophets in OT

but to heal and drive demons ? really in greek -many powers were doing


this directing me to translate opposite

because it is unbelievable that they stand in God's presence and tell about false things they did in his name

so obviously it is said that they failed to do what it has had to be done

this is from inside of phrase

now context surrounding

21Οὐ πᾶς ὁ λέγων μοι Κύριε Κύριε, εἰσελεύσεται εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τῶν οὐρανῶν, ἀλλ’ ὁ ποιῶν τὸ θέλημα τοῦ Πατρός μου τοῦ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς. 22πολλοὶ ἐροῦσίν μοι ἐν ἐκείνῃ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ Κύριε Κύριε, οὐ τῷ σῷ ὀνόματι ἐπροφητεύσαμεν, καὶ τῷ σῷ ὀνόματι δαιμόνια ἐξεβάλομεν, καὶ τῷ σῷ ὀνόματι δυνάμεις πολλὰς ἐποιήσαμεν; 23καὶ τότε ὁμολογήσω αὐτοῖς ὅτι Οὐδέποτε ἔγνων ὑμᾶς· ἀποχωρεῖτε ἀπ’ ἐμοῦ οἱ ἐργαζόμενοι τὴν ἀνομίαν.

enter only those who fulfilled the will of God

what is the will of God?

Jesus showed - John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will ...
ὅτι καταβέβηκα ἀπὸ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ οὐχ ἵνα ποιῶ τὸ θέλημα τὸ ἐμὸν ἀλλὰ τὸ θέλημα τοῦ πέμψαντός με.

what He was doing?

prophesying and many powers of the Holy Spirit

it was not helping with money and so on - smiling with people and so on

it was prophesying by Holy Spirit for opening hearts of people to repent for them showing on their sinful states

and if ill or demon possessed - freeing them and preaching them - not opposite - preaching to the ill people

the same belongs to those who of Christ

who says i am in Him do what Jesus did

what? drive demons and heal people and show them what is in their hearts


of course you tell me this belongs to apostles and evangelists

yes - they will do more than Jesus did

and the rest should do what Jesus did

--------------------------

if we are talking about the will of God only like -the will of God is to be holy

then we are still babies not grown up for the better things to do

this is showing that we are missing spiritual power to be holy also

and this is dangerous

so the deeds in the name of God show where you are
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Re: case with ou

Postby Damoetas » Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:41 pm

Edited: If your interpretation is true, then Matthew did not know how to write Greek very clearly, because everyone who has read that passage for thousands of years has taken it to mean the exact opposite of what you think it means.
Dic mihi, Damoeta, 'cuium pecus' anne Latinum?
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Re: case with ou

Postby piro » Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:01 pm

with all text we received one should be careful

it is not original - could have been treated not accurately rewriting by many people of those times

so my approach - should be twice or three times found the same then can be accepted considering that fit into over whole teaching of Christ

as passage considered here is once in the scripture it should have been scrutinized carefully
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Re: case with ou

Postby MiguelM » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:33 am

You put the eish! in eisegesis!
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Re: case with ou

Postby John W. » Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:46 am

I'm not a Christian, but even I am prompted by this discussion to recall the comment attributed to someone (Erasmus?) to the effect that 'I give thanks to God every day that he did not make my eternal happiness dependent upon exegetical enquiries'!

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Re: case with ou

Postby piro » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:38 am

yes

one who believes should not relies on papers only but on the Holy Spirit which has to be received and reached the state of being taught by the Holy Spirit

but process of knowledge should go for those who is going to be teacher of faith

this should be opened personally by God
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Re: case with ou

Postby piro » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:45 am

i don't put anything here on exegesis

i am not guilty if some theologians relies on there own mind not on the Holy Spirit

it is the Holy Spirit prompting me investigate the Scripture by rules proposed by Scripture not reading simply

because partial knowledge of the Scripture is to put oneself in danger to be deceived

we have to know everything what we need to know to stand against false spirits
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Re: case with ou

Postby Paul Derouda » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:18 pm

piro wrote:i don't put anything here on exegesis

No, indeed you don't; quite the opposite, as Miguel so aptly pointed out.
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Re: case with ou

Postby piro » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:28 pm

it was said grammatically possible

that's enough

of course only after second passage similar has been presented
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Re: case with ou

Postby jeidsath » Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:49 pm

Maybe someone could teach me how to say what piro wants to say in τῇ Ἀλεξανδρέων διαλέκτῃ and also in τῇ Ἀττική διαλέκτῃ.

Also, maybe we could express the same thing as an Αἰγύπτιος δοῦλος speaking to τήν δεσπότην ἀυτοῦ.

And then we can continue in that vein, until we are all as fluent in Greek as in English, and take up the initial subject again then?
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Re: case with ou

Postby Qimmik » Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:05 pm

ἐπαχύνθη γὰρ ἡ καρδία τοῦ λαοῦ τούτου, καὶ τοῖς ὠσὶν βαρέως ἤκουσαν, καὶ τοὺς ὀφθαλμοὺς αὐτῶν ἐκάμμυσαν· μή ποτε ἴδωσιν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς καὶ τοῖς ὠσὶν ἀκούσωσιν καὶ τῇ καρδίᾳ συνῶσιν καὶ ἐπιστρέψωσιν, καὶ ἰάσομαι αὐτούς.


If I'm not mistaken, μή ποτε here isn't a negative word--it means "perhaps." "Perhaps they might see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn around, and I'll heal them."

I can't see how μή ποτε could be interpreted as a negative here--in fact, he's suggesting that they might do all of the things he mentions: see, hear, understand and turn around. So there's no reason to repeat the negative with each verb (as there would be in Matthew 7:22). In fact, adding a negative particle to each verb would not just be strange, it would convey exactly the opposite of what is being said.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dmh%2Fpote

In short, this passage (Matthew 13:15) is not a valid parallel to Matthew 7:22, and, to repeat, if piro's translation were correct, we would expect the parallel verbs ἐξεβάλομεν and ἐποιήσαμεν to be linked by οὐδὲ, instead of καὶ.

Added to that, as previously mentioned, οὐ at the beginning of a sentence is a typical way to introduce a yes/no question expecting a positive answer. Instead, to their surprise, the false prophets get a negative answer.

And this follows: ἀποχωρεῖτε ἀπ᾽ ἐμοῦ οἱ ἐργαζόμενοι τὴν ἀνομίαν. οἱ ἐργαζόμενοι τὴν ἀνομίαν suggests that he's responding to people who have done something wrong, not to people who haven't done anything.

I should disclose that my background isn't Christian, so perhaps I shouldn't be interjecting my views here.
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Re: case with ou

Postby Markos » Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:36 pm

Qimmik wrote:...to repeat, if piro's translation were correct, we would expect the parallel verbs ἐξεβάλομεν and ἐποιήσαμεν to be linked by οὐδὲ, instead of καὶ.


Just a minor point of clarification. I have already said that I more or less agree with this. I can't really explain why, but I too would expect οὐδέ in the unlikely event that piro's understanding of Mt. 7:22 were correct. But I have been giving a little thought of late to the negative connectives, and maybe the most important thing you can say about these is that the usage is quite various. There is a formal difference between οὐ καί and οὐδέ, and WHEN THE CONTEXT SUPPORTS IT, you can appeal to the difference to establish a difference in meaning. But on a practical level, quite often the two are used interchangeably, and so I would be reluctant to appeal to this to refute piro. It's just like καί and δέ. There is a formal difference, but there are zillions of cases where the two mean the same thing.

What I mean is that these two sentences

οὐκ ἐσθίω καὶ πίνω.
οὐκ ἐσθίω οὐδὲ πίνω.

CAN mean different things, if the contexts are different, but they can also mean the same thing.

I should disclose that my background isn't Christian, so perhaps I shouldn't be interjecting my views here.


No, not at all.

Jeff Tirey could have written:
...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification...


:)
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Re: case with ou

Postby Qimmik » Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:54 pm

οὐκ ἐσθίω καὶ πίνω -- you might be able to interpret this as "I don't eat or drink" with two short and closely related verbal ideas or where the verbal ideas follow consequentially on one another--I think I've seen parallels to this in Demosthenes and Thucydides. For example, something like "I don't eat and drink in the evening, but instead I study Greek."

But it would be very strange to interpret the sentence in question that way.

οὐ τῷ σῷ ὀνόματι ἐπροφητεύσαμεν, καὶ τῷ σῷ ὀνόματι δαιμόνια ἐξεβάλομεν, καὶ τῷ σῷ ὀνόματι δυνάμεις πολλὰς ἐποιήσαμεν

There are already two possible interpretations for this:

1. We didn't prophesy in your name and we threw out demons in your name and we made miracles in your name.

2. Didn't we etc.
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Re: case with ou

Postby John W. » Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:43 pm

Personally I'm still unclear as to why anyone desperate to get into Heaven would in effect be saying 'Lord, we didn't do as you told us.' Surely they would be adducing positive instances of what they had done, in the hope of gaining celestial admission.

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Re: case with ou

Postby piro » Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:15 pm

the judgement before God will be different than we think and unusual

1 New International Version
But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken.

2 New International Version
I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.

3 New International Version
The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now something greater than Solomon is here.

this shows that judgement will be exhaustive enough by all aspects of life


if on the judgement will be comparables available - then one can imagine that it could be standing who were doing all these things and besides them will be who was not

if God will ask you - you see they were doing my will and in what way you were doing?

nothing to tell - exactly like that -we were not capable to do in thy name these

we were believers without God's works

if so - lawlessness was in our life
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Re: case with ou

Postby Markos » Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:55 pm

piro wrote:we were believers without God's works

Hi, piro.
1 Cor. 12:29-13:2:
μὴ πάντες ἀπόστολοι; μὴ πάντες προφῆται; μὴ πάντες διδάσκαλοι; μὴ πάντες δυνάμεις; μὴ πάντες χαρίσματα ἔχουσιν ἰαμάτων; μὴ πάντες γλώσσαις λαλοῦσιν; μὴ πάντες διερμηνεύουσιν; ζηλοῦτε δὲ τὰ χαρίσματα τὰ μείζονα. Καὶ ἔτι καθ' ὑπερβολὴν ὁδὸν ὑμῖν δείκνυμι. καὶ ἐὰν ἔχω προφητείαν καὶ εἰδῶ τὰ μυστήρια πάντα καὶ πᾶσαν τὴν γνῶσιν, καὶ ἐὰν ἔχω πᾶσαν τὴν πίστιν ὥστε ὄρη μεθιστάναι, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, οὐθέν εἰμι.

Luke 10:20:
πλὴν ἐν τούτῳ μὴ χαίρετε ὅτι τὰ πνεύματα ὑμῖν ὑποτάσσεται, χαίρετε δὲ ὅτι τὰ ὀνόματα ὑμῶν ἐγγέγραπται ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.

I find it noteworthy that both Paul and Jesus, while of course not denying that prophesy and healings and exorcisms are important, downplay them here, in favor of love and grace respectively. It seems that, already in the earliest Church, there had arisen what Luther would later call a "theology of glory." People who were blessed with the spiritual gifts were using them to lord it over others and began to imply that if you did not have a certain gift you were not good enough to be saved. It is very hard for us not to trust in our own religious righteousness and instead base our salvation on grace alone through faith. I never judge anyone who falls into this trap. It is hard not to take Christianity as religion requiring works rather than as a covenant requiring only trust in Jesus' death. So much so that passages like Mt. 7:22, which are meant to remind us NOT to rely on our works, can taken by some to suggest just the opposite.
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Re: case with ou

Postby piro » Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:14 am

it is answer which good for beginners of faith

by faith one should reach spiritual state instead of being fleshly

spiritual means not only to be spiritually gifted but have faith working by love of God

what love you show to an ill person?

to give him some money and send him to doctors or to heal him in the name of Jesus?

what is love of God?

love of Spirit is not love of soul
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