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LLPSI Familia Romana - alternative AUDIO recordings

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LLPSI Familia Romana - alternative AUDIO recordings

Postby Godmy » Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:39 am

CAPITULUM III - PUER IMPROBUS - http://youtu.be/qV-QzUpKi7M
(And MP3 http://tinyurl.com/pdvvhfg)

I don't imitate much voices and sounds (especially done by little Iulia). I considered making a high pitched "Lalla", but it would sound in the overal recording too funny (and I would have to speak like that as Iulia). I was also considering slapping myself instead of tuxtax... but again :)

_______________________________________________________________________________________

CAPITULUM II - FAMILIA ROMANA - http://youtu.be/Fb1aJEh2lUo
(And MP3 http://tinyurl.com/nlwvzwn)

I also deal with the problem of the feminine version of "Quis?" (=Quae) (an interrogative substantive) which [edit] seems not to be a classical way for an interrogative substantive at all, with "Quis?" being used for both genders. So I pronounce the sentences both with "Quae?" and with "Quis?" (which is my opinion desired).

_______________________________________________________________________________________

CAPITULUM I - IMPERIVM ROMANVM - http://youtu.be/tt3g90nCgPk

(And an MP3 http://tinyurl.com/oqr27s2 ; and no-background-noise MP3 tinyurl.com/lwd84sa , the audio quality is worse here, I recommend the original version.)
- I recorded it with my headphones on, so the result is a kind of a "silent tranquil voice mode", but I find it (perversely) pleasant when listening with headphones.

I will probably do the whole book...
_______________________________________________________________________________________

So the point was to have there on the Internet some recordings of the Lingua Latina Per se Illustrata: Familia Romana that are:

1) different than the recording done by the venerable but very old and tired voice of Hans Oerberg (It sometimes makes an impression that Latin must be truly dead)
2) restituted pronunciation
3) correct pronunciation
4) correct vowel lengths: not to pronounce a vowel long which should be short, not to pronounce short which should be long, not to pronounce something long just because it is accented (unless long in the same time), not to aspirate consonants (like "p,t,k") that shouldn't be aspirated, always voice the initial voiced consonants (like "b"; as in "barba"), to have some reliable vowels, no vowel reduction (no schwa thing), no diphtongization of the long vowels... etc.
5) My native language is Czech which is described sometimes as the one of the European languages having phonemically a long-short vowels pairs distinction (for all the vowels we have), so it could be more interesting for you. (Slovak also has it, but Slovak for example has problems with words containing more than one long vowel, Czech can have a word with 4 long vowels no problem). We for example always recognize a long vowel even in a rapid speech.
6) the voice shouldn't be annoying (and I hope I'm not: I've also bought a new microphone :) )
7) the recordings are available in MP3


I realize that I have deviated a tiny little bit in very few aspects from what is prescribed in the Vox Latina book, but it is so marginal that you wouldn't know.
Nevertheless I list all the deviations I'm aware of in the video description on Youtube:
(by the way: I mention English speakers a lot, but it is a bit unfair, because the reason is that they are the Latin speakers I meet the most as I move mainly on the English internet. So the English speakers will forgive me :D )

Familia Romana recordings that are alternative to Hans Oeberg recordings (a different and much younger voice). The stresses/accents and vowel lengths are ALWAYS adhered to. So you can imitate it

Download the MP3 http://tinyurl.com/oqr27s2
___________________________________

The pronunciation: I do adhere to the restituted rules quite rigorously but there might be some deviations I know about and I am going to list them:

1) The vowel inventory used for my restituted pronunciation (the long and short monophtongs I use) is this http://tinyurl.com/p7y86en . It is not 100% what the book (Vox Latina) prescribes but it is daringly close (much closer than the English vowel inventory for example). The only difference between my way and the prescribed way is that my long vowels are always identical to the short vowels (the same vowel quality) and differ purely only by the length (different vowel quantity), unless for "í/ī. Sometimes it might happen that I will use a vowel which is identical to what is prescribed by the book.
But you will probably hear no difference.

2) I do not turn final vowel+m (um/em/am) into a nasalized vowel both for higher clarity of the recording and mainly because I do not hear anybody from the latinists I talk to to do that very much unless they read poetry. Also Vivarium Novum teachers, as far as I know, do not do this. (And Vivarium Novum is the biggest known community speaking only Latin)

3) I do not produce "QU" as labiovelar stop, because the majority seems to ignore this also. We produce instead a sequence of two sounds "Q + W" as in Italian: so my pronunciation is not exactly what the book (Vox Latina) would prescribe but it is what you will hear in the restituted pronunciation all around the world (both from lips of academics and amateurs). To be honest I have never met (or heard) anybody to do here a real labiovelar stop.

4) My mother tongue does not aspirate certain consonants: "p,t,k" which is GOOD for Latin and this recording is therefore also very beneficial for English speakers who tend to do this and usually do it also in Latin, even if they try to avoid this. Terence Tunberg, maybe the best latinist in the world, also does it sometimes and that makes him distinctively sounding English when speaking Latin.

5) My native tongue never reduces vowel / does not turn them into schwas, so this is again very beneficial for the English speakers. E.G. I would never pronounce "animus" as "anim-s", which when unreduced, is correct.

6) My initial consonants that are supposed to be voiced, like "b" in "barba", are always voiced. English speakers tend to produce them as unvoiced and unspirated, so this will be a good example for them.

7) the classical diphtong "AE" is not supposed to be exactly the same as the first vowel in the word "island" but it is supposed to be something as "a" + suppressed "e". But I will probably not always adhere to this. The audible difference is marginal. Same with "oe".

8) I never pronounce long vowels (monophtongs) as diphtongs as English speakers tend to do. So my "ē" is never "ei", my "ō" is never "ou", etc.

9) I pronounced 'Lesbos' with "z". This was not on purpose... it is what we call in phonetics an assimilation of voicing. ("b" is voiced, ergo "s" will be voiced too). Maybe the Greek pronunciation of that time had this (but I do not know).

If something else occurs me, I will write it down. I hope you will enjoy it.
As I mentioned, the recording is done with my headphones on, so it is done with a silent voice in a way which gives it an interesting color, but I think it is not exactly unpleasant :-)

- I have not removed the background noise because the voice would suffer a bit.
Last edited by Godmy on Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:16 pm, edited 13 times in total.
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Re: LLPSI Familia Romana - alternative AUDIO recordings

Postby MiguelM » Mon Dec 23, 2013 2:04 pm

Michael Godmy sal.

Gratias tibi cumprimis ago perplurimas, quod illam utilissimam 'Lexica Latina et Græca' sedem condideris, quæ quidem mihi sæpissime maximo usui est, quamque amicis sodalibusque semper mostro ostendoque laudandam.

Quod ad rem tamen, scilicet ad vocis tuæ hance incisionem, velim ante omnia te laudare propter magnam tuam hac in re industriam et gravitatem præceptorum. Certe optima est, et pronuntiationum leges sequeris probatissimas. Si quid autem fari licebit, tibi amicus tuorumque propositorum fautor velim tibi persuadere ut animum intendas cuidam rei, quod (mea quidem sententia) maxime proderit, ut tuum hoc opus ad bonum se conferat portum, nam quum dicis «1) different than the recording done by the venerable but very old and tired voice of Hans Oerberg (It sometimes makes an impression that Latin must be truly dead)» non credo te rectissime dicere. Non est mihi Oerberg defendendus, non ejus causa hæc profero sed tuæ, quoniam hæret infixus menti modus quo Oerberg eadem verba, quæ tu, pronuntiabatur, et nullo modo "very old and tired" videbatur; immo multo vividius te loquebatur... Hoc dicam: bene novi primum capitulum non esse optimum exemplum!, semper enim eædem structuræ repetuntur. Ut tamen res nunc se habet, libentius discipulis meis ejus incisionem darem, licet non adeo recto pronuntiatu utatur quam tu, quam tuam. Fortasse proximis capitulis res aliter se habebit. Hoc exempli gratia patet sæpe, nam quandoque Oerberg conatur quandam vim drammaticam suæ voci addere, quæ tu semper eadem modulatione proferis.

Noli hæc accipere quasi notam, potius accipias pro quæ bona spe nixus dico te maxime laudans propter tuam enuntiandorum vocabulorum rationem, sed memento nonnunquam melius esse peius enuntiare quam "tædio" affici — non dubito quin multo melius recitare possis, præsertim quum et tibi sit animo talem deffectum castigare.

Vale optime,
et iterum gratias ago.
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Re: LLPSI Familia Romana - alternative AUDIO recordings

Postby Godmy » Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:53 pm

Salvē, MiguelM,

prīmum gaudiō maximō afficior tam libuisse lexica mea et ūtilia tē ea habēre! :)
(nūntium quoddam prīvātum ad tē mīsī)

Quod ad vōcem meam et Iohannis Montāriī pertinet: Potius dē qualitāte vōcis, quae ab eō iam vītā confecta mihi vidētur (cum eum vōcem suam cēpisse iam senem appāreat, extrēmā in vītā), locūtus sum quam dē modō dramaticō et modō legendī ipsō. Hīc certē vērum dīcis mē multō minus reī dedisse quam Iohannem et minus mē secundum nātūram audīrī (fortasse et plūs mortuum), iūniōrem autem! 8) :D

At, nē rem repetam, tibi mōnstrābō, quid aliī hominī hodiē respōnsī dederim eādem dē rē in commentāriīs in TuTūbō:

Ille dīxit:
bbryant06209 wrote:
Very good, though I'm not knowledgable enough to comment on the accuracy of pronunciation. I definitely like that your pronunciation is more like restored classical than Oerberg's hybrid restored classical/ecclesiastical pronciation.

I only have three bits of constructive criticism I can offer, and please don't take insult, are that: (1) there seems to be a loud hum in the microphone; (2) certain chapters—though not this one—will probably require a more lively reading; and (3) this isn't read fast enough to challenge the listeners mind to comprehend quickly (though it is probably not intended to be so).

That having been said, this was a very pleasant reading; furthermore, I look forward to hearing the rest of them and will likely make these recordings my main audio resource for the chapters of Lingua Latina.

Ego respondī:
Godmy wrote:
Thank you very much both your praise and criticism.

1) Yes, I'm aware of it. I purposely didn't remove the background noise because the voice quality would suffer... but.. BUT I think it might be a good idea in the future. But I will leave this recording as it is. Maybe I will come to some compromise (not to have noise, and to have the voice in the same quality)

2) You are right... I just tried to sound: clear, slow and if possible, not annoying :) (if you want to know what I mean as an annoying voice for an 'example reading' then try some recordings of Stephen Daitz for ancient Greek Iliad (hehe). )

3) Indeed. But I think that to comprehend the accents and vowel lengths and learn how it differs from the way you would read it, as a complete beginner, naturally with the phonology of your mother tongue (like to get the message correctly that in "Italia" there are all vowels short but "a" is accented [unless ablative], but that the accented syllable still remains short), one should start with careful training on clear and slow examples and then can move to faster things. They can speak and listen to fast Latin for all the rest of their life in practice. But they can listen to slow and clear examples only once/only rarely... and this is the stage they should learn to do it CORRECTLY and catch all the subtleties...
Off-topic: There has been done a research that the "baby language" mothers use to speak to their babies has universally more distinct vowel differences than for example there are in the actual normal speech used between adults (and that this is observed spontaneously all around the world in all languages where mothers speak to their infants) and maybe it has a good purpose. You will carefully learn all the important differences and then you can merge them together a bit in practice and lively speech, but already heaving the correct "phonemic" information in your head.

- yes, the fast comprehension may be spoiled by this... I think that the price is reasonable. Nevertheless, I take the criticism and I might get faster and more lively/natural in some later chapters (10,11, 12 and on... I will see)

By the way: Now I realized that Hans Oerberg makes "Imperium" Romanum with long accented vowel... which is incidentally wrong ;) (Imperium has/must have all vowels short - compare to my recording). But it's understandable... that happens that accents are traded for lengths in the language evolution. In my language the word "imperium" is now with initial "im" having accent and "pe" having length.

<- Thank you very much again for your honest criticism and also for liking the recording :) I will do another recordings and I will do my best to make some of them maybe sound more natural but still adhere to the accents/vowel lengths as much as possible :-)

I also list lot of interesting stuff in the video description :-)
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Re: LLPSI Familia Romana - alternative AUDIO recordings

Postby Godmy » Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:04 pm

No-background-noise version for the chapter 1: http://tinyurl.com/lwd84sa (but the audio quality is worse here, so I recommend the original version).
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Re: LLPSI Familia Romana - alternative AUDIO recordings

Postby Alatius » Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:40 am

Most of it is really good! There were just a couple of things I thought of when I listened to it, which I might as well mention:
Have you considered reducing final -m to nasalization of the preceding vowel?
To my ears at least, it sounds as if you say "Assia", with a long s.
K (/ka:/) is not the third letter of the alphabet. The letter C is pronounced /ke:/, nonne?
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Re: LLPSI Familia Romana - alternative AUDIO recordings

Postby Godmy » Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:37 pm

Alatius wrote:Most of it is really good!

Thanks :)

Have you considered reducing final -m to nasalization of the preceding vowel?

Indeed I have. I mention it in the video description if you see the part "about" on Youtube (I also requoted it in the very first post in this thread

Godmy wrote:....
2) I do not turn final vowel+m (um/em/am) into a nasalized vowel both for higher clarity of the recording and mainly because I do not hear anybody from the latinists I talk to to do that very much unless they read poetry. Also Vivarium Novum teachers, as far as I know, do not do this. (And Vivarium Novum is the biggest known community speaking only Latin)
...



To my ears at least, it sounds as if you say "Assia", with a long s.

Hm, I think that the actual long "s" would be more distinctively "longer", this is too short in my opinion to qualify as "ss", but I agree that it might sound emphatic and can therefore lead to these questions...

K (/ka:/) is not the third letter of the alphabet. The letter C is pronounced /ke:/, nonne?

You are right, mehercle... I just knew that the names of the letters in Czech and in Latin are almost the same and this is the one point where they differ. My language has "c = cē" but read as "tsē" and then it has "k = kā" (read as "kā" :P).

I will mention this in the video description that it is another deviation.

For the whole list of my possible "deviations" see the "about the video/video description" section on Youtube below the video or my first post where I requote it :-)

Anyway, thank you for your evaluation and merry Christmas!
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Re: LLPSI Familia Romana - alternative AUDIO recordings

Postby vacamata21 » Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:38 am

Salve Godmy,

Great stuff! The buzzing does not bother too much since your voice is very clear. Have already listened to it and waiting anxiously for the next recordings. Keep up the good work!

Salve
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Re: LLPSI Familia Romana - alternative AUDIO recordings

Postby Godmy » Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:27 pm

CAPITULUM II - FAMILIA ROMANA

http://youtu.be/Fb1aJEh2lUo

(And MP3 http://tinyurl.com/nlwvzwn)

I also deal with the problem of feminine version of "Quis" which is probably made up by Hans Orberg (at least I have not found yet any evidence of it):[/s] [i]Quae est māter Iūliae? Aemilia est māter Iūliae.So I pronounce the sentences both with "quae" and with "quis" (which is in my opinion desired).

Edit: I'm finding such use (interrogative substantive "Quae?") in Terentius. So I retract my original opinion and state at least in the classical Latin you would use "Quis?" for a woman (when asking a noun, not an adjective) anyway.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

vacamata21 wrote:Salve Godmy,

Great stuff! The buzzing does not bother too much since your voice is very clear. Have already listened to it and waiting anxiously for the next recordings. Keep up the good work!

Salve

Thank you very much! :) It is because there are people like you who think this can be useful that I think it would be a good idea to continue...
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Re: LLPSI Familia Romana - alternative AUDIO recordings

Postby A.A.I » Fri Dec 27, 2013 10:27 pm

Is there any such thread discussing such 'errors' in Lingua Latina?
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Re: LLPSI Familia Romana - alternative AUDIO recordings

Postby MiguelM » Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:09 pm

Correct me if you will, but I'll say it's not an error, and I don't think you were right in making it so. The interrogative adjective can be both Quis/Quæ/Quod as well as Quis/Quis/Quod. As far as I know, it's not even consisted up to that point, and you can find instances of Qui/Quæ/Quod, as well as of Quis as relative (though not standard language).

If anything I'd say it's more correct to use Quis/Quæ for people when you know whom you're talking about (as in the book: quæ est mater? because 'mater' is obviously feminine; quis est pater? because etc), and, yet another instance of indo-european patriarchy, Quis when it's unclear whether it's a man or a woman: Quis pulsat januam? Quis venit?
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Re: LLPSI Familia Romana - alternative AUDIO recordings

Postby Godmy » Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:41 pm

Hm, well I think (to avoid any confusion) that the adjectival paradigm is [qui, quae, quod ] and the substantival [quis, quid] (and as you point out: quis being used sometimes adjectively (as an interrogative)). But that doesn't matter now...

I was more concerned about quae being used substantively (since the answer is māter - a substantive), but now I seem to get some positive results of such use in Terentius (which makes me surprised). Ok. In this light substantival quae is correct but it is at least very unclassical as an interrogative substantive...

I feel sorry now that I made this thread going off-topic a bit...
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Re: LLPSI Familia Romana - alternative AUDIO recordings

Postby MiguelM » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:10 am

I'm sorry myself. Maybe we can have these last posts split onto another thread so we can discuss it?
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Re: LLPSI Familia Romana - alternative AUDIO recordings

Postby Godmy » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:10 am

I've edited my post, MiguelM, if you read the old one... now I kind of agree.
Godmy wrote:I was more concerned about quae being used substantively (since the answer is māter - a substantive), but now I seem to get some positive results of such use in Terentius (which makes me surprised). Ok. In this light substantival quae is correct but it is at least very unclassical as an interrogative substantive...


Yes, let us split the thread please :)
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Re: LLPSI Familia Romana - alternative AUDIO recordings

Postby Bedell » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:49 am

This course might be of interest too, but has only been translated as far as the second lesson so far.

https://site.saysomethingin.com/communi ... rse-1-laen
nothing should arouse more suspicion than a cross-party consensus - Antidemocritus fl. 2010
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Re: LLPSI Familia Romana - alternative AUDIO recordings

Postby Godmy » Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:50 pm

CAPITULUM III - PUER IMPROBUS

http://youtu.be/qV-QzUpKi7M

(And MP3 http://tinyurl.com/pdvvhfg)

I don't imitate much voices and sounds (especially done by little Iulia). I considered making a high pitched "Lalla", but it would sound in the overal recording too funny (and I would have to speak like that as Iulia). I was also considering slapping myself instead of tuxtax... but again :)
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