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Inspecting 1 John 1:1

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Inspecting 1 John 1:1

Postby Isaac Newton » Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:11 pm

Ὃ ἦν ἀπ' ἀρχῆς, ὃ ἀκηκόαμεν, ὃ ἑωράκαμεν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς ἡμῶν, ὃ ἐθεασάμεθα καὶ αἱ χεῖρες ἡμῶν ἐψηλάφησαν, περὶ τοῦ λόγου τῆς ζωῆς


(A) I tend to think that the relative pronoun ὃ refers to τοῦ λόγου in the phrase τοῦ λόγου τῆς ζωῆς . In other words, I believe the antecedent of ὃ above is τοῦ λόγου .

(B) Also I believe that the genitive ζωῆς in the prepositional phrase above is related epexegetically to the
preceding λόγου, which therefore has the meaning "concerning the Word , that is, the Life." So the prepositional phrase is to be translated / understood as follows; "[I'm talking] of the Word , that is, the Life ."

Any thoughts on A and/or B above ?
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Inspecting 1 John 1:1

Postby mwh » Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:36 pm

(A) You need to read a bit further on in this straggly sentence to get the construction. The relative clauses are picked up in v.3 and are all the direct object of apaggellomen. V.2, grammatically speaking, is parenthetical, inasmuch as it interrupts the sentence begun in v.1. (Since logos is masculine, it couldn't be the antecedent of ὃ, neuter.) The ὃ has no antecedent, just "what we have heard" etc., "(the thing) which we have ...".

(B) I'd say τῆς ζωῆς will certainly be dependent on tou logou, not in apposition, nor a defining gen. (If he'd wanted to make it epexegetic he'd have had to add ὅ ἐστι.) I read it as an objective genitive myself.
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Re: Inspecting 1 John 1:1

Postby Isaac Newton » Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:15 pm

Hi mwh,

Thanks for your post, and peace in Christ...

mwh wrote:(A) You need to read a bit further on in this straggly sentence to get the construction. The relative clauses are picked up in v.3 and are all the direct object of apaggellomen. V.2, grammatically speaking, is parenthetical, inasmuch as it interrupts the sentence begun in v.1. (Since logos is masculine, it couldn't be the antecedent of ὃ, neuter.) The ὃ has no antecedent, just "what we have heard" etc., "(the thing) which we have ...".

.


The grammatical gender of λόγος is masculine. The neuter pronoun ὃ simply brings out it's natural gender (since the reference is to λόγου "from the beginning," prior to it's becoming a human being ) . It must be understood that this portion of the Epistle is a commentary on the Prologue of John, -- the parallelism with John 1:1-14 is unmistakable and undeniable, consider John 1:1 :

ΕΝ ΑΡΧΗ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος. Οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν.


The antecedent of the pronon Οὗτος is λόγος in John 1:1 . Similarly the antecedent of the pronoun ὃ is also λόγος in 1 John 1:1 .


(B) I'd say τῆς ζωῆς will certainly be dependent on tou logou, not in apposition, nor a defining gen. (If he'd wanted to make it epexegetic he'd have had to add ὅ ἐστι.) I read it as an objective genitive myself.


I don't think this is true. Could you please explain where you're getting this from ?
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Inspecting 1 John 1:1

Postby mwh » Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:37 pm

Yes I figured where you were coming from (Ev.J.), but I'm afraid I can't agree. To associate the ὃ clauses with the embedded and subordinated του λογου puts an impossible strain on the Greek.

As to B, of course you don't have to believe me on that either. All I can say is your way of construing it would be very forced.

Please understand I have no axe to grind. I speak only as an experienced reader of Greek (including NT), and I tell it like it is.

χαρις σοι και ειρηνη
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Re: Inspecting 1 John 1:1

Postby Isaac Newton » Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:35 am

Hi MHV,



Greetings in the name of the Father of Jesus, in peace,

mwh wrote:Yes I figured where you were coming from (Ev.J.), but I'm afraid I can't agree. To associate the ὃ clauses with the embedded and subordinated του λογου puts an impossible strain on the Greek.



I would humbly counter by suggesting that your proposal puts an insurmountable strain on the Greek. For example the main verb , according to your way of thinking, does not occur until the end of line 3, leaving the relative clauses impossibly dangling miles away from it, and cut off by multiple interruptions . You would have to add an equative verb , but doing so would render the first relative clause a subject when you want them to be objects. You would literally then have to ADD a phrase absent from the Greek text to make your reading tenable..


Please understand I have no axe to grind.


IMHO we all have axes to grind, some of us more so than others..

I speak only as an experienced reader of Greek (including NT), and I tell it like it is. As to B, of course you don't have to believe me on that either. All I can say is your way of construing it would be very forced.

χαρις σοι και ειρηνη


O.K. .. Do you stand by your original assertion that τοῦ λόγου τῆς ζωῆς in 1 John 1:1 cannot be two genitives in simple apposition unless we add ὅ ἐστι to the expression ? Because as far as I can tell, this is not true.
Last edited by Isaac Newton on Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Inspecting 1 John 1:1

Postby Isaac Newton » Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:20 am

I was mulling over John 1:9 just now,.. beautiful words :

Ἦν