Textkit Logo

itaque, accent

Here's where you can discuss all things Latin. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get translation help and more!

Moderator: thesaurus

itaque, accent

Postby Lavrentivs » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:48 pm

Is itaque pænultimate?
Lavrentivs
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 214
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: itaque, accent

Postby adrianus » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:41 pm

A&G §12
ita'que = and so
i'taque = therefore
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: itaque, accent

Postby mwh » Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:05 pm

Interesting question, implausible answer. What's A&G?
mwh
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 575
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: itaque, accent

Postby adrianus » Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:47 pm

mwh wrote:Interesting question, implausible answer. What's A&G?

Cur incredibile, nisi inconstabilem illam grammaticam habeas? Idem, nisi fallor, in Keil (scilicet in volumine quodam seriei Grammatici Antiqui nomine) quopiam scribitur.
Why implausible, unless you feel A&G is unreliable? I remember this also from Keil (Grammatici Antiqui) in one of the volumes.

A&G = Allen & Greenough's New Latin Grammar
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=AG+12&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0001
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: itaque, accent

Postby mwh » Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:20 pm

Thanks for the resolution of A&G (yes, of course) and the link. Effect of enclitics on accentuation is tricky (scholars argue about it), and things are rather more complex than the A&G rules admit (though I see they do acknowledge scholarly dispute over e.g. exinde). When did itaque "and so = "therefore" get separated off from "and so = and in this way"? (Obviously by the time itaque starts being used postpositively.) That will have some bearing on the question - which, to repeat, is an interesting one, but not one to be definitively answered by reference to A&G.
mwh
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 575
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: itaque, accent

Postby adrianus » Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:33 pm

mwh wrote:That will have some bearing on the question - which, to repeat, is an interesting one, but not one to be definitively answered by reference to A&G.
Look in Keil, then, if you want a better answer. I suspect that was A&G's source. See Servius in Keil, IV: 427. There is no basis for claiming a distinction is implausible.
In illa volumina de Keil inquiras, si alium fontem (fontem A&G auctorum, ut suspicor) quaeras. Discrimen exstare inter modos sensuum sonandorum non improbabile est.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: itaque, accent

Postby mwh » Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:13 am

Yes I figured they got it from some ancient grammarian, and ought to have guessed Servius. No doubt the doctrine was true in his time, and perhaps in Vergil's. But how much earlier?, when did itaque split into two? It's a genuine question, which I'm too ignorant to answer. Plus of course Latin accentuation changed from Plautus to classical.
(I should add I haven't yet looked up the Servius--but thanks for the reference--nor modern phonological/prosodical treatments. And I'm happy to withdraw "implausible" in the interests of fostering a spirit of communal enquiry rather than confrontation. I'm already catching enough flak on the Greek boards. :wink: )
mwh
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 575
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: itaque, accent

Postby adrianus » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:26 am

mwh wrote:Yes I figured they got it from some ancient grammarian, and ought to have guessed Servius.

I've read every volume of Keil and could not say as much because reading it once is only a start and there's so much I haven't grasped. Where does that insight come from? You are implying an expertise in Servius. Couldn't another have mentioned that detail? And there is so much Servius doesn't talk about.
Omne volumine de Keil lecto, ego tantum clamare non possum quod non satis est semel legisse et multum apud grammaticos antiquos malè capio. Unde oritur talis acuitas? Te peritum Servi esse denotas. Nonnè alius de illo vocabulo tractaverit. Et multa Servius praeterit.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: itaque, accent

Postby mwh » Sat Oct 26, 2013 8:12 pm

You're perfectly right. I'm no sort of expert on Servius, nor have I read everything in Keil even once (and if I had, I might not admit to it :wink:). I've been known to confuse my Donati, and possibly my Servii (for can we be sure of authorship?). Please strike the sentence.

Fortunately it has no bearing on the question at issue, the historical bifurcation of itaque. That's what I'd be interested in knowing about, and I suspect the ancient Latin grammarians are not going to be of help there. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

(I'm little surprised at your omne, incidentally, but I don't presume to query it.)
mwh
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 575
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: itaque, accent

Postby adrianus » Sun Oct 27, 2013 12:33 am

mwh wrote:..nor have I read everything in Keil even once (and if I had, I might not admit to it :wink:)
Non absumptum est tempus in legendo illius operis de Keil confactum.
Time spent reading Keil isn't wasted.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: itaque, accent

Postby mwh » Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:06 am

I understand your English, and I almost agree. But does it help with the itaque question?
mwh
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 575
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: itaque, accent

Postby adrianus » Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:18 pm

Yes, reading Keil helps with Laurentius's itaque question because, when you read it you find direct evidence that, at one point, the practice was to accent itaque in two ways. A&G drew attention to this practice. I drew attention to A&G and I drew attention to a source in Keil. There may be other places in Keil where itaque comes up but I can't locate them just now. I recommend reading Keil. Beyond that I know of no other primary evidence on the question. That is the help I can offer. Beyond that is conjecture and sometimes waffle.

De Laurenti quaestione, juvat quidem Keil legere quod, eo lecto, vestigium invenitur quod monstrat duos sonandi modos olim constitisse. Itidem in grammaticâ de A&G scribitur, ut jam dixi, et unum fontem in Keil indicavi. Forsit alibi in Keil loci qui ad rem pertinent, at ei interibi me fugunt. In Keil inquirere suadeo. Alioqui, alios fontes pristinos ignoro. En auxilium quod profero. Ultra, conjecturae et vacua.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: itaque, accent

Postby mwh » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:21 am

Gee. Yes, you answered the original question, in the terms in which it was asked. But you fail to see that the dogma you reported (as if it was gospel truth) entails a more interesting and fundamental question, as I have tried gently to point out:
mwh wrote:When did itaque "and so = "therefore" get separated off from "and so = and in this way"?

That's why I defined the question at issue as the historical bifurcation of itaque. (when -que shed its enclitic status)
Without an answer to that there is no hope of settling the question of the historical accent. You have been assiduously avoiding this and have done nothing but harp on Keil. And now you pronounce
adrianus wrote:Ultra, conjecturae et vacua.

That is the most arrogant and (to be frank) stupid statement I have heard for some time. There are scholars who study latin prosody and the history of the latin language. Perhaps you are too busy reading Keil to be aware of them. But it is to them we must turn for instruction and enlightenment on questions such as this.

The discussion between the two of us has clearly gone as far as it can (that is to say, nowhere). I hope others will come on board.

EDIT: I apologize for the exasperated tone of this post.
Last edited by mwh on Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
mwh
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 575
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: itaque, accent

Postby Victor » Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:52 pm

mwh wrote:That is the most arrogant and (to be frank) stupid statement I have heard for some time. There are scholars who study latin prosody and the history of the latin language. Perhaps you are too busy reading Keil to be aware of them. But it is to them we must turn for instruction and enlightenment on questions such as this.

Then name these scholars and the studies we should refer to for instruction and enlightenment on this question.
Victor
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 116
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:19 am

Re: itaque, accent

Postby adrianus » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:17 pm

mwh wrote:That is the most arrogant and (to be frank) stupid statement I have heard for some time. There are scholars who study latin prosody and the history of the latin language. Perhaps you are too busy reading Keil to be aware of them. But it is to them we must turn for instruction and enlightenment on questions such as this.
You are being rude, mvh. I don't know what age you are but that would be no excuse, so control yourself. I am not aware of instruction and enlightment on this question of how to pronounce itaque by any scholar I have read on this topic (which is one of my favourite topics for casual research), other than what has been garnered from the ancient grammarians. If you know of any, share it with us. What I say is that without primary evidence about pronunciation of itaque there is conjecture and there are also people pretending to know more than they do. That is neither a stupid statement nor an arrogant one. If anything, it's a criticism of arrogance.

Inledipè scribis, mvh. Aetatem tuam ignoro at id non refert: te probè geras. Separatim illa de itaque sonando ex scripturis grammaticorum antiquorum a scholasticis lecta, ulla vestigia utilia ignoro etiamsi latè de hâc re amatâ legi. Si locos aptos scis, communices. Sine fontibus pristinis qui ad rem sonandi pertinent, conjecturam habemus, at sunt qui plus scire simulant. Nec stolidè nec superbè scribo, sed contra superbiam.

Post Scriptum.

I just saw Victor's post and it's a fair question. They usually refer to Keil.
Quaestionem Victoris justam modo animadverti. Plerumquè opus de Keil citant.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: itaque, accent

Postby Shenoute » Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:53 am

I also find mwh's post(s) to be rather rude and discourteous. The point he raises is an interesting one but I fail to see how "a spirit of communal enquiry rather than confrontation" can be fostered in such a way.

That said, this article (from 1965) provides an overview of the topic. This other article (1908) could also be interesting.
Shenoute
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:23 pm

Re: itaque, accent

Postby mwh » Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:14 pm

I apologize for the tone of my last post. The post to which it responded, merely repeating previous posts and peremptorily dismissing everything I had written as "conjecture and sometimes waffle," had brought it home to me that we were effectively stuck at the point where we'd started, and that I had to abandon all hope of meaningful dialogue and communal enquiry - unless others joined the discussion.

Shenoute now rescues us from the impasse by very helpfully linking to two very helpful articles, esp. Tucker's. They amply confirm the main point that I had been trying unsuccessfully to get across, that the "Effect of enclitics on accentuation is tricky (scholars argue about it), and things are rather more complex than the A&G rules admit" (Oct.25 post). They also tempt me to reinstate the "implausible" of my original post. It is folly to fixate on itaque in isolation, just as it is folly to accept statements of late Latin grammarians on matters of pronunciation as definitive (see Tucker's first two pages, to go no further). The primary evidence is the corpus of Latin literature (supplemented by Greek).

There will no doubt be more recent studies, but Latin being only peripheral to my main interests I can't give precise references. Jumping-off points for investigation might be Questa? (early Latin, empiricist), Devine and Stephens? (linguistics orientation)? I have very vague recollection of coming across some note specifically on itaque (whose semantic bifurcation makes it particularly interesting) but I don't remember where or what (perhaps by Otto Skutsch, in his Ennius commentary maybe??).

I'll bow out here, unless I see an opening to make a positive contribution that won't simply be brushed aside.
mwh
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 575
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: itaque, accent

Postby adrianus » Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:17 am

mwh wrote: The post to which it responded, merely repeating previous posts and peremptorily dismissing everything I had written as "conjecture and sometimes waffle,".
I did not say that (everything you had written was conjecture and waffle), as anyone can read above.
Id non dixi, ut omnes supra legere possunt.

mwh wrote:Shenoute now rescues us from the impasse by very helpfully linking to two very helpful articles, esp. Tucker's. They amply confirm the main point that I had been trying unsuccessfully to get across, that the "Effect of enclitics on accentuation is tricky (scholars argue about it), and things are rather more complex than the A&G rules admit" (Oct.25 post)..
I had assumed that, when you were referring to the debate, you had read relevant books and articles. I see that I assumed wrongly.
Falsè imaginavi te, qui de controversiâ locutus sis, fontes aptes legisse. Me ineptum.

mwh wrote:They also tempt me to reinstate the "implausible" of my original post.
You judged it implausible because you hadn't read anything on the matter. No one on the pages you now have read who disagrees that enclitics attract the accent, says it's implausible.
Sine fontibus aptis legis, rem habuisti incredibile. Nullus auctor in paginis paucis a te nunc lectis citatus, etiam qui a grammaticis antiquis dissentit, ut incredible clamat encliticum attrahere accentum.

mwh wrote:There will no doubt be more recent studies, but Latin being only peripheral to my main interests I can't give precise references. Jumping-off points for investigation might be Questa? (early Latin, empiricist), Devine and Stephens? (linguistics orientation)? I have very vague recollection of coming across some note specifically on itaque (whose semantic bifurcation makes it particularly interesting) but I don't remember where or what (perhaps by Otto Skutsch, in his Ennius commentary maybe??). .
Devine and Stephens doesn't discuss this; Skutch doesn't discuss this. I have dozens of articles and books about Latin pronunciation and about enclitics and pronunciation and there are more I don't have. Many do mention itaque for reasons started above. These are more obvious places to start if you want to read about the debate. Some people love Allen's Vox Latina. Do a search for Latin Accent or Latin Pronunciation or Latin Prosody or Latin Accent and Enclitics, and you will find some of them at least. You should read them. They throw light on Laurentius's question and many acknowledge the conjectural nature of their investigations; none throw light on your question.

De re nostrâ non tractat istud opus de Devive et Stephens; nec tractat Skutch, nisi locus me fugit. Multos libellos voluminaque habeo qui de latino sonando ac prosodiâ tractant et sunt alii qui non legi. Sunt qui volumen Vox Latina nomine de Allen adorant. In interretem haec vocabula inquiris: "Os latinum" vel "Prosodia" vel "Accenta/enclitica". Multa eorum inquisitorum de itaque et encliticis tractant, multa se conjecturas fatentur, multa illuminant Laurenti quaestionem; non illuminant quaestionem tuam.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: itaque, accent

Postby mwh » Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:55 am

You might want to reconsider "Sine fontibus aptis legis, rem habuisti incredibile" and "alii qui non legi," if nothing else.
mwh
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 575
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: itaque, accent

Postby Godmy » Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:29 pm

Date veniam, quod nihil dē rē ipsā scrībō (vestrum colloquium mē maximē tenet!), sed modo ad Latīnitātem Adriānī, quī semper nōs in subscriptō nūntiōrum suōrum petit, ut, quod prāvī vīdimus, statim corrigāmus (spērō mē male nōn facere et Adriānum īrātum ergā mē nōn futūrum :D ):
_______________________________________________________________________________________
- imagināvī -> imaginātus sum (melius; quia dēpōnēns) -> mente fīnxī / mente concēpī (optimum)
(exstat et nōn dēpōnēns sed ita nōn ūsurpātur)

- ille,a,ud + substantīvum (velut in "dē illā grammaticā..." etc.) -> licet profectō, at in linguā classicā potius cum substantivō prōnōmen "is,ea,id" vidēmus... (nisi dē locō procul sitō loquimur ubi "ille, a, ud" necessārium est) //Ita, vidēmus utrumque, sed is,ea,id plūs viget.

- ...de Keil confactum. -> "confacio/confio" haudquāquam in linguā classicā vidēbis. Accentus, suō locō mūtātō, fuit quī effēcit ut "confacio" "conficio, ere, confēcī, confectum" fieret. Et ita potius nōs, quī in linguam classicam aemulī sumus, facere oportet. -> confectum

- Omne volumine de Keil lecto... -> "omne" -> "-e" semper accūsātīvus nōminātīvusve generis neutrī est (adj. & pronom.) nisi apud Christiānōs vel forsan 'archaicissimōs' (antīquissimōs) auctōrēs et īnscriptiōnēs. Maximī momentī est apud nōmina substantīva neutra, quae secundum "mare/exemplar (exemplāre) / animal (animāle)" dēclīnantur ubi aliud est "in mare(acc.) saluit" et "in marī(abl.) est"; "in exemplāre(=exemplar) trānscrībere" et "in exemplārī esse"; "in rēte incidere" et "in rētī captus esse"; "in animāle(=animal) mūtāre aliquem" et "in animālī sanguis est". Idem valet ad adiectiva tertiae dēclinātiōnis ferē omnia (nisi "vetus, veteris"... etc) habēre "ī" in ablātīvō -> "omnī volūmine (per)lectō".

- Si locos aptos scis, -> classicē "scīrī" possunt potius rēs, quās tōtās in cerebrō/mente habēre potes. (rēs 'abstractae/intangibilēs' + sententiae subordinātae / īnfīnītīvī). Quae autem tangibilia sunt (rēs physicae vel persōnae), physicē cerebrō continērī nōn possunt, sed sōlummodo "scientia" eōrum continērī cerebrō potest. Tum dīcimus "nōsse". (Fallerem, sī dīxissem semper discrimen esse tam clārum, ut profiteor, sed hoc discrimen potius adest quam abest) -> locōs aptōs nōstī

- In interretem -> id verbum antīquum, ex quō hic neologismus orītur, est "rēte, rētis" (pl. rētia) = sīcut mare, maris, dē cuius accūsātīvō ablātīvōque prius disseruī -> id interrēte -> in interrēte(acc.)
_______________________________________________________________________________________

Habē tē quam optimē et floreat Latīnum tuum! :wink:
Last edited by Godmy on Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:14 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Latin IRC chat: http://textkit.com/greek-latin-forum/vi ... =3&t=62017
POST·NVBILA·PHOEBVS
User avatar
Godmy
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:47 pm
Location: Czech Republic

Re: itaque, accent

Postby adrianus » Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:02 pm

Grata mihi tua corrigenda, Godmy. Saepè erro et latinè meliùs scribere velim. De habilitate meâ, decipere nolo; dein, nihil hîc scribo sine et latiné,—porrò, placet et adjuvit mihi sic facere. Saepè incongruo modo scribo, scio; nonnunquam posteà errata animadverto, tunc corrigo.

Thanks, Godmy. I appreciate that. I'm often making mistakes, I'm not always consistent; sometimes I see my own mistakes afterwards and correct them. Certainly, I would like to improve. I don't wish to mislead people about my level so I lay out my wares for all to see,—plus, I like it and it helps me.

Alia corrigenda
Sine fontibus aptis legis, rem habuisti incredibile --> Fontibus aptis non a te lectis, rem habuisti incredibilem
alii qui non legi --> alii quos non legi


Post Scriptum
A tiny point, Godmy, on omne, omni. I admit I was forgetting my declensions. You say omni is always used classically. A&G says ablative in "-i" is rare in prose for such adjectives classically, not impossible. Omni is certainly better.
Omni—per i ablativo casu singulariter,—dicis "semper", at non semper sed plerumque dicit A&G, §116, http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0001%3Asmythp%3D116. Erravi autem, fateor, quod inflectionis oblitus sum.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: itaque, accent

Postby adrianus » Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:35 pm

Godmy wrote: ille,a,ud + substantīvum (velut in "dē illā grammaticā..." etc.) -> licet profectō, at in linguā classicā potius cum substantivō prōnōmen "is,ea,id" vidēmus... (nisi dē locō procul sitō loquimur ubi "ille, a, ud" necessārium est) //Ita, vidēmus utrumque, sed is,ea,id plūs viget.

ille,a,ud + substantīvum (velut in "dē illā grammaticā..." etc.) = "the famous/well-known or 'The' x", is common to Latin and Gaelic and English, meaning "The [famous] Grammar" or "The [famous] O'Neill" or "The Stig" or "Winnie The Pu". It's actually more like a title.
Bonus, nisi fallor, hic usus et latinè et anglicè et goidelicé, qui epitheton vel titulus rem vel creaturam hominemve notum significat, ut "Winnie ille Pu" (non "Winnie is Pu", non "Winnie Pu").

It's true I did say "de illo vocabulo" instead of "de eo vocabulo" or "de isto vocabulo", which is more accurate, indeed; but "de illâ grammaticâ de A&G" = "Concerning A&G's well-known grammar book";
Verum est, de usu is ea id pronominis cum nomine substantivove, falsè interdum scripsi.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: itaque, accent

Postby Godmy » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:52 pm

adrianus wrote:Grata mihi tua corrigenda, Godmy. Saepè erro et latinè meliùs scribere velim. De habilitate meâ, decipere nolo; dein, nihil hîc scribo sine et latiné,—porrò, placet et adjuvit mihi sic facere. Saepè incongruo modo scribo, scio; nonnunquam posteà errata animadverto, tunc corrigo.

Gaudeō, sī aliquid tibi hoc iuvit... forsan commodius mihi esset, sī tacuissem, quī nihil ad rem, dē quā tractābātis, habērem - at putābam melius esse amīcē hominem monēre, dē quā rē monendum esse arbitrābar, quam omnia praeterīre... quō animus malus in diēs etiam fierī posset.
Sī aliquīd in futūrō vīderō, quod iuvāre possit, scrībam (et ego nōnnumquam aliquid pravioris scrīpsī et tum, nūntiō missō, multa (retrōrsum) ēmendō...)

adrianus wrote:Post Scriptum
Omni—per i ablativo casu singulariter,—dicis "semper", at non semper sed plerumque dicit A&G, §116, http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0001%3Asmythp%3D116. Erravi autem, fateor, quod inflectionis oblitus sum.

Rēctē monēs nōn esse etiam in aetāte classicā impossibile "-e" ablātīvum in adiectīvīs (et forsan prōnōminibus) vidēre, nam poësis semper adest...
At, ut tū et A&G dīcit dē prōsā - esse rārum: Ego modo (paulō ante) omnia exempla Cicerōnis Caesarisque, ubi "omne" scrībunt, perspexī et numquam vīdī fuisse ablātīvum. Neque dīcō tē umquam praedicāsse "omne" esse melius in ablātīvō (cōnsēnsus inter nōs est), sed modo sciendī cupiditāte causā hanc inquisitiōnem fēci (=habeō factam; quamobrem consecūtiō temporum haec), ut etiam melius videāmus QUAM rārum sit :)

adrianus wrote:
Godmy wrote: ille,a,ud + substantīvum (velut in "dē illā grammaticā..." etc.) -> licet profectō, at in linguā classicā potius cum substantivō prōnōmen "is,ea,id" vidēmus... (nisi dē locō procul sitō loquimur ubi "ille, a, ud" necessārium est) //Ita, vidēmus utrumque, sed is,ea,id plūs viget.

ille,a,ud + substantīvum (velut in "dē illā grammaticā..." etc.) = "the famous/well-known or 'The' x", is common to Latin and Gaelic and English, meaning "The [famous] Grammar" or "The [famous] O'Neill" or "The Stig" or "Winnie The Pu". It's actually more like a title.
Bonus, nisi fallor, hic usus et latinè et anglicè et goidelicé, qui epitheton vel titulus rem vel creaturam hominemve notum significat, ut "Winnie ille Pu" (non "Winnie is Pu", non "Winnie Pu").

It's true I did say "de illo vocabulo" instead of "de eo vocabulo" or "de isto vocabulo", which is more accurate, indeed; but "de illâ grammaticâ de A&G" = "Concerning A&G's well-known grammar book";
Verum est, de usu is ea id pronominis cum nomine substantivove, falsè interdum scripsi.

Bene dīcis in eō contextū, cuius exemplum dedī, esse ūsum tuum iustiōrem... Ego enim plūra huius reī exempla ā tē scrīpta lēgeram, cum hoc scrīberem, et modo cāsū(=forte) hoc ūnum exemplum ēlēgī... Aliud eligendum plānē erat :)

Obiter: Nesciō an felix titulus sit "Winnie ille Pu"... mihi anglicismus maximus vidētur articulum dēfīnītum convertere (transferre), cum in linguīs aliīs modernīs IndoEuropeīs, sīcut in linguā meā māternā, bohemicā, quae et dēclīnat et coniugat, conversio (=trānslātiō) hōrum librōrum semper sine articulō dēfīnītō trānslātō sit (neque aliter fieri posset.... stultum cum prōnōmine dēmōnstrātīvō esset).
Mihi aliquantulum "barbaricum" hīc vidētur, et in titulō "Hobbitus Ille" iam barbarismus maximus est (ipse liber terrībiliter conversus est, ut calamitātem linguae tuae patiāris, sī eum forte legās... :? )

Cōnsentiō autem in eō exemplō, quem ēlēgeram, fuisse ūsum tuum iustiōrem.
Latin IRC chat: http://textkit.com/greek-latin-forum/vi ... =3&t=62017
POST·NVBILA·PHOEBVS
User avatar
Godmy
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:47 pm
Location: Czech Republic

Re: itaque, accent

Postby adrianus » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:17 pm

Godmy wrote:Obiter: Nesciō an felix titulus sit "Winnie ille Pu"... mihi anglicismus maximus vidētur articulum dēfīnītum convertere (transferre), cum in linguīs aliīs modernīs IndoEuropeīs, sīcut in linguā meā māternā, bohemicā, quae et dēclīnat et coniugat, conversio (=trānslātiō) hōrum librōrum semper sine articulō dēfīnītō trānslātō sit (neque aliter fieri posset.... stultum cum prōnōmine dēmōnstrātīvō esset).
Mihi aliquantulum "barbaricum" hīc vidētur, et in titulō "Hobbitus Ille" iam barbarismus maximus est (ipse liber terrībiliter conversus est, ut calamitātem linguae tuae patiāris, sī eum forte legās... :? )

Sum et barbarus et felix, et anglicismus modernus non est sed antiquus et goidelicismus antiquior pro regis titulo. Classicum scribendi modum admiror, unâ cum aliis, praesertim modum Erasmi et serioris aetatis. De hoc, iterum tecum concurro: ineptum "Hobitus Ille" et inepta ista versio in quâ paucas paginas legi, reliquas neglexi.
Well, I'm a barbarian and proud of it and I'd say it's not a modern Anglicism but a very old one [‘He’s Winnie-ther-Pooh. Don’t you know what “ther” means?’ ‘Ah, yes, now I do,’ I said quickly; and I hope you do too, because it is all the explanation you are going to get.] and a more ancient celticism for the title of king or head of all clans. I like classical latin but love also Erasmian and modern Latin. I do agree about the silliness of "Hobbitus Ille" as a title (it's not strictly right) and elsewhere in the translation (judging from what little I read of it before disgarding it).
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: itaque, accent

Postby Godmy » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:30 pm

adrianus wrote:
Godmy wrote:Obiter: Nesciō an felix titulus sit "Winnie ille Pu"... mihi anglicismus maximus vidētur articulum dēfīnītum convertere (transferre), cum in linguīs aliīs modernīs IndoEuropeīs, sīcut in linguā meā māternā, bohemicā, quae et dēclīnat et coniugat, conversio (=trānslātiō) hōrum librōrum semper sine articulō dēfīnītō trānslātō sit (neque aliter fieri posset.... stultum cum prōnōmine dēmōnstrātīvō esset).
Mihi aliquantulum "barbaricum" hīc vidētur, et in titulō "Hobbitus Ille" iam barbarismus maximus est (ipse liber terrībiliter conversus est, ut calamitātem linguae tuae patiāris, sī eum forte legās... :? )

Sum et barbarus et felix, et anglicismus modernus non est sed antiquus et goidelicismus antiquior pro regis titulo. Classicum scribendi modum admiror, unâ cum aliis, praesertim modum Erasmi et serioris aetatis. De hoc, iterum tecum concurro: ineptum "Hobitus Ille" et inepta ista versio in quâ paucas paginas legi, reliquas neglexi.

... tamen cēnseō "Winnie Ille Pu" nōn esse titulum ex tōtō optimum, sed licet. Titulus Bohēmicus (dē quā linguā modo breviter disseruī) est "Medvídek Pú (=Ursulus Pū)" (Dē Hobbitō iam plūra nōn dīcēmus... titulus Bohēmicus eius simpliciter est "Hobit" -> "bb" nōn habēmus, neque dēmōnstratīvīs ita abūtī nōbīs licet, tamquam linguae Latīnae...)
Latin IRC chat: http://textkit.com/greek-latin-forum/vi ... =3&t=62017
POST·NVBILA·PHOEBVS
User avatar
Godmy
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:47 pm
Location: Czech Republic

Re: itaque, accent

Postby adrianus » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:38 pm

Quomodo in sermones bohemicos hoc vertitur; quomodo id tractatur?
How is this translated, then:
Milne wrote:‘He’s Winnie-ther-Pooh. Don’t you know what “ther” means?’ ‘Ah, yes, now I do,’ I said quickly; and I hope you do too, because it is all the explanation you are going to get.’

Do you know the saying // Scisne hoc dictum anglicum et modernum, "You're the man!"?
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: itaque, accent

Postby adrianus » Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:17 pm

Oxford Latin Dictionary wrote:ille ~a ~ud...4b...that famous, the well-known"
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: itaque, accent

Postby Godmy » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:55 pm

Hm, cum cognōverō quid in versiōne Bohēmicā scrīptum sit, certiōrem tē faciam :-)
Latin IRC chat: http://textkit.com/greek-latin-forum/vi ... =3&t=62017
POST·NVBILA·PHOEBVS
User avatar
Godmy
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:47 pm
Location: Czech Republic


Return to Learning Latin

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MonkishKarl and 86 guests