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more help, please?

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more help, please?

Postby ruruinthenight » Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:56 pm

I would love any feedback on these three translations if possible, please.

English -> Latin

1. 'Quintus', he said, 'you are a boy of great industry but you must not go to school today.'
‘Quinte’, inquit, ‘puer magna industria es, sed hodie non ad ludum debe i.'


- Am I correct to use the imperative 'debe', rather than the present 'debes'?


2. Marcus led him from the forum to the Circus Maximus, which was full of men and women.
Marcus a foro ad Circum Maximum eum duxit, quod viris et (virisque?) feminis plenum fuit.

- I am concerned about the word order of '...a foro ad Circum Maximum...' in the independent clause. Is this correct? Incidentally, if it is correct, would '...ad Circum Maxiumum a foro...' be equally acceptable?
- In the subordinate clause, is '...viris et feminis..' correct? Is is possible to use 'que'; for example: '...virisque feminis...'? (Somehow that doesn't seem right.)


3. The traveller boarded the ship unwilling(ly). When they reached the open sea, he was very afraid.
viator navem invitus conscendit. ubi aperto mare advenerunt, valde timidus fuit.

- (This sentence is one of a number which focus on comparative and superlative adjectives.) In this particular sentence, I found that 'timidus' (unlike, say, longissimus) seemed at once to mean "afraid and "very afraid". Is this correct? Is there no superlative form of 'timeo'? This being said, I felt that 'valde' was therefore necessary in this case. Is it?

- Finally, the use of "ubi" vs "cum". Is there a general rule for the situation in which one is preferred over another?

Many thanks for your time and help!
Amber
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Re: more help, please?

Postby adrianus » Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm

1.
puer magnae industriae
ad ludum [vel in ludum] ire non debes

2
i. Yes, either // ita, alterutrum bonum
ii. virorum feminarumque plenum

3.
i. Exstat vocabulum timidissimi: "Mors timidissimum quemque consequitur"

ii.
Finally, the use of "ubi" vs "cum". Is there a general rule for the situation in which one is preferred over another?
Not for "when", I think,—or I don't know of one.
Pro anglicè "when" regulam quae inter ubi et cum distinguit ignoro.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: more help, please?

Postby ruruinthenight » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:09 pm

2
i. Yes, either // ita, alterutrum bonum
ii. virorum feminarumque plenum


Thank you. I'm really struggling to understand why 'virorum' and 'fiminarum' are genitive. I've been trying to work it out for quite some time, but I still can not understand why they wouldn't be accusative -um to agree with 'plenum', or maybe ablative -is, since they describe a quality of the Circus Maximus. I think I must have missed a very obvious and critical point somewhere!
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Re: more help, please?

Postby bedwere » Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:11 am

ruruinthenight wrote:
2
i. Yes, either // ita, alterutrum bonum
ii. virorum feminarumque plenum


Thank you. I'm really struggling to understand why 'virorum' and 'fiminarum' are genitive. I've been trying to work it out for quite some time, but I still can not understand why they wouldn't be accusative -um to agree with 'plenum', or maybe ablative -is, since they describe a quality of the Circus Maximus. I think I must have missed a very obvious and critical point somewhere!


virorum feminarumque plenum

(of men) (and of women) (full)
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Re: more help, please?

Postby ruruinthenight » Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:16 am

adrianus,

Also, regarding your comment:
puer magnae industriae
ad ludum [vel in ludum] ire non debes


My textbook describes the use of ablative case (Balme & Morwood, Oxford Latin Course, Part II, p. 129):
"Further uses of ablative case
... with/of: the ablative is used in describing qualities, e.g.
est puer magno ingenio he is a boy of great talent."

Am I misunderstanding this?
Thanks!
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Re: more help, please?

Postby ruruinthenight » Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:24 am

bedwere wrote:
(of men) (and of women) (full)


Of course. Thank you. There is no disguising my beginner status.
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Re: more help, please?

Postby adrianus » Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:57 am

... with/of: the ablative is used in describing qualities, e.g.
est puer magno ingenio he is a boy of great talent."

Am I misunderstanding this?
Thanks!

It's my mistake. Say either way. I've read both (genitive, ablative).
Oblitus sum. Erravi. Aut genetivo auto ablativo, nisi fallor.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: more help, please?

Postby ruruinthenight » Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:54 pm

adrianus wrote:
... with/of: the ablative is used in describing qualities, e.g.
est puer magno ingenio he is a boy of great talent."

Am I misunderstanding this?
Thanks!

It's my mistake. Say either way. I've read both (genitive, ablative).
Oblitus sum. Erravi. Aut genetivo auto ablativo, nisi fallor.



Thank you - that makes sense. I'm sure my textbook isn't the ultimate authority on the matter!

Just to be clear, the same does/does not apply to:

Marcus a foro ad Circum Maximum eum duxit, quod viris feminisque plenum fuit.
Marcus a foro ad Circum Maximum eum duxit, quod virorum feminarumque plenum fuit.

Sorry to go on and on about it; I'm just cementing my understanding, and I need to be painfully clear!
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Re: more help, please?

Postby adrianus » Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:42 pm

Bonum est efflagitare. In dictionarium de L&S inquisivi et iterum rectè dixisti quod plenum cum genetivo frequentiùs scribitur at secundum L&S illud adjectivum cum ablativo scribi potest. Continuò disco qui tot ignorem.
It's good to pursue things. You're right again. I looked up L&S's dictionary and, while plenus -a -um more frequently is accompanied by the genitive, the ablative is also possible. I never stop learning because I'm far from an expert.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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