pster wrote:I'm not saying Smyth is wrong. But it is a very interesting claim and I want to know whether there is something to it.
pster wrote:Marchant says that this τε is displaced. Is it? 1.3.4:
οἱ δ᾽ οὖν ὡς ἕκαστοι Ἕλληνες κατὰ πόλεις τε ὅσοι ἀλλήλων ξυνίεσαν καὶ ξύμπαντες ὕστερον κληθέντες οὐδὲν πρὸ τῶν Τρωικῶν δι᾽ ἀσθένειαν καὶ ἀμειξίαν ἀλλήλων ἁθρόοι ἔπραξαν.
More generally, is it just me, or do commentaries not only not agree on what the solution, but at least half the time don't even agree on what the problem is?
Πολυκράτης γὰρ ἐστὶ πρῶτος τῶν ἡμεῖς ἴδμεν Ἑλλήνων ὃς θαλασσοκρατέειν ἐπενοήθη, πάρεξ Μίνωός τε τοῦ Κνωσσίου καὶ εἰ δή τις ἄλλος πρότερος τούτου ἦρξε τῆς θαλάσσης: τῆς δὲ ἀνθρωπηίης λεγομένης γενεῆς Πολυκράτης πρῶτος, ἐλπίδας πολλὰς ἔχων Ἰωνίης τε καὶ νήσων ἄρξειν
But the question is what was the original relative pronoun? Why is it genitive plural and not
singular? Or, better yet, why is the verb singular and not plural?
The "oldest Minos" requires massaging, while "oldest naval battle" doesn't. What is oldest in the Minos sentence is his building of a navy. What is oldest in the second has nothing to do with the Corinthians and the Corcyraeans.
More generally, I am still working towards an understanding of how Greek distinguishes between:
a) Minos was the first person we know of to have built a navy,and b) Minos, the first person we know of, built a navy.
Qimmik wrote:"παλαίτατος is not one of the terms in his lists" The lists in sec. 1042 aren't exclusive by any means. The examples with πρῶτος are a template for παλαίτατος.
This isn't an instance of Thucydides' deliberately thorny style--this is just idiomatic Greek.
Qimmik wrote:If it's just a matter of how best to translate the Greek expression into idiomatic English, I don't have a problem with your choice. But when you write "I prefer to see implicit in Th. 1.4 a copula and relative pronoun similar to what we find in Smyth's second 1169 example," you're suggesting that there's a structure involving ἦν ὅς underlying or implicit in Thucydides' sentence--you're rewriting Greek to fit your English translation. Thucydides' sentence is perfectly logical and stands on its own.
In any event, Smyth in 1169 doesn't write that predicate adjectives used this way are implicitly a construction with a copula and a relative pronoun, he writes that predicate adjectives are equivalent to a copula and a relative pronoun. Moreover, the examples with πρῶτος in 1042 are also instances of predicate adjectives, as Smyth 913 makes clear, and in 1042 he doesn't see a need to imply a copula and a relative pronoun to make them logical. Take a look at 915, too.
Μίνως γὰρ παλαίτατος ὧν ἀκοῇ ἴσμεν ναυτικὸν ἐκτήσατο...
In English, we would more often say something like: For Minos was the oldest of those whom we know to have established a navy...
If we wanted to translate this back into Greek, what would we say?
Qimmik wrote:John, I responded to your message, but I can't tell whether it went through to you.
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests