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Plus tamen vis potuit quam voluntas patris

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Plus tamen vis potuit quam voluntas patris

Postby pmda » Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:55 pm

There's something I'm confused about in Orberg's narrative of Cap XLI of LLPSI.

He is recounting the history of the Kings of Alba.

He says: Proca deinde regnat. Is Numitorem atque Amulium procreat; Numitori, qui filius maior erat, regnum vetustum Silviae gentis legat. Plus tamen vis potuit quam voluntas patris: pulso fratre [postquam fratrem pepulit], Amulius regnat. Addit sceleri scelus: stirpem fratris virilem interimit, fratris filiae Reae Silviae, cum virginem Vestalem eam legisset, perpetua virginitate spem partus adimit.

Proca then ruled. He begat Numitor and then Amulius; He left the ancient kingdom of the Silvian people to Numitor. More despite power being as capable as the will of the father: struck by his brother, Amulius Ruled. Crime is added to crime: He (Amulius presumably) killed the male child of the brother, the daughter of his brother Rea Silvia, ruling that she should be a Vestal Virgin, by her perpetual virginite he prevented all hope of an heir.


What does 'Plus tamen vis potuit quam voluntas patris' mean....?
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Re: Plus tamen vis potuit quam voluntas patris

Postby Qimmik » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:20 pm

"However, violence [vis] was more successful [plus potuit, 'was able to do more'] than their father's wishes. His brother [having been] driven out, Amulius reigns as king. He adds crime to crime: he kills the male issue [stirpem] of his brother [stirps doesn't necessarily mean just one child]; from his brother's daugher Rhea Silvia--since he had selected her as a Vestal Virgin--he takes away all hope of childbearing [or children] by [consigning her to] perpetual virginity."

(Leaving historical presents as presents. Note the asyndeton (absence of conjunction) between the last two clauses--this is a feature of Livy's brisk and pithy style.)
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Re: Plus tamen vis potuit quam voluntas patris

Postby pmda » Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:57 pm

Thanks Quimmik
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Re: Plus tamen vis potuit quam voluntas patris

Postby pmda » Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:00 pm

I've just seen this from Orberg's Instructions for LLPSI Book II (page 12):

'...New verbal nouns in =us -us (4th declension) formed from the supine stem are discessus <discedere, adventus < advenire, partus < parere, vagitus < vagire.

? I'm a bit confused here. Is he simply telling us that these are perfect passive participles?

What's new about them? We've been dealing with these since book one of LLPSI !?

I have treated 'partus' in the passage above simply as a regular noun: partus, -us (m) meaning offspring. Which happens to be identical to the perf. passiv. participle. and so I guess it could be treated as that without altering the meaning 'the born'.

Regardless I have translated it as '...taking away all hope of issue...'

...or is he simply telling us that 4th declension nouns in -us are 'verbal nouns'...and they are formed from the supine stem...?
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Re: Plus tamen vis potuit quam voluntas patris

Postby adrianus » Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:23 pm

pmda wrote:Is he simply telling us that these are perfect passive participles?

They aren't. They aren't declined like participles.
Non sunt. Aliter declinantur.

pmda wrote:4th declension nouns in -us are 'verbal nouns'

They aren't. Think of acus, domus, anus, manus.
Non sunt. Acum, domum, anum, manum habeas.

If he used verbal nouns in Book 1, then I don't know why the word "new" was used? Perhaps "recent[ly mentioned in the text]" was meant. Are you sure that verbal nouns are used in Book 1.
Si primo vero in libro sunt nomina verbales, nescio cur anglicè "nova nomina" postes dicatur? Nescio cur, nisi sensu nominum modo dicendorum latino. Esne certus?
Last edited by adrianus on Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Plus tamen vis potuit quam voluntas patris

Postby Qimmik » Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:32 pm

"is he simply telling us that [most] 4th declension nouns in -us are 'verbal nouns'...and they are formed from the supine stem...?" Yes, this is right. In the nominative and accusative singular, these verbal nouns look exactly like the same forms as the masculine perfect participle.

In the passage in question, the verbal noun partus, from the verb pario, parere, literally means "the act of giving birth." I translated it "childbearing" to emphasize its derivation as a verbal noun. But by extension, it can also be used to mean "issue" or "offspring" as you translated it.

In the passage you cited, however, partus has to be genitive (with a long u) because it depends on spem. Therefore, it can't possibly be a past participle.
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Re: Plus tamen vis potuit quam voluntas patris

Postby Qimmik » Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:33 pm

Adrianus correctly notes that not all 4th declension nouns are verbal nouns, but most are.
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Re: Plus tamen vis potuit quam voluntas patris

Postby pmda » Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:44 pm

Got that. He was referring to 'partus' as a verbal noun. thanks.
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Re: Plus tamen vis potuit quam voluntas patris

Postby adrianus » Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:22 am

pmda wrote:'...New verbal nouns in =us -us (4th declension) formed from the supine stem are discessus <discedere, adventus < advenire, partus < parere, vagitus < vagire...

What's new about them? We've been dealing with these since book one of LLPSI !?

I checked. Discessus and partus and vagitus are not in the first book so they are indeed new words.
Verificavi. Nec discessum nec partum nec vagitum esse in primo libro, tunc nova haec vocabula.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Plus tamen vis potuit quam voluntas patris

Postby pmda » Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:28 pm

Adrianus, mea culpa. I just didn't understand why he was going on about verbal nouns of the 4th declension. To be honest I wasn't very aware the concept of 'verbal noun' .....
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