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Passive Periphrastic

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Passive Periphrastic

Postby Matermultorum » Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:52 am

This is the question I was working on from Caesar:A Legamus Transitional Reader.
Caesar, qui in Provincia erat, ad exercitum maturandum sibi existimavit.

The key says: Casesar who was in the Province, thought that he ought to hasten to the army. It also says that this is a passive periphrastic in the indirect statement.

Passive periphrastic is new to me. I looked in Excelibility in Latin Grammar and it says that the gerundive is used to express obligation or necessity. When combined with a form of sum, it forms a construction known as the passive periphrastic. And sibi is in the dative of agent. And it can be translated actively. This all seems to agree with the answer key except that there is not a form of sum.

1)So can the gerundive of purpose form a construction known as passive periphrastic without a form of sum?

2)Would you agree with the explanation in the key?

3)Should the Excelibility text have mentioned that the passive periphrastic can occur with just a gerundive and no form of sum?

4) Is the ending um because it matches the subject he which is in the accusative because it is the subject of the indirect statement?

Thank you
Last edited by Matermultorum on Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Passive Periphrastic

Postby Qimmik » Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:29 am

esse is understood here, and usually omitted in this construction.

Can you check the verb? Manduro isn't one I can recall ever seeing, and I don't find it in Lewis and Short.
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Re: Passive Periphrastic

Postby Matermultorum » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:34 am

maturandum. Sorry, I didn't check that carefully enough. I'll correct it in the original post.

Thank you for the information that esse is understood. I have worked a little further in the book and it looks like there is going to be some instruction about the periphrastic.

Is the um ending to match the understood subject he, an accusative subject of an indirect statement?

Thank you so much for the help!
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Re: Passive Periphrastic

Postby Qimmik » Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:31 pm

Maturandum here is intransitive. This is an example of the use of an intransitive verb in a passive periphrastic form (the gerundive + understood esse) with an active impersonal meaning. Sibi is dative of agent. It's the logical subject but there is no grammatical subject because this is an impersonal construction. If se were inserted, maturandum would be passive, meaning something nonsensical, such as "Caesar would have to be matured/hastened to/by himself."

See Allen & Greenough sec. 208d: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0001%3Asmythp%3D208

sec. 374a: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0001%3Asmythp%3D374

Note: this has been revised since original posting.
Last edited by Qimmik on Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Passive Periphrastic

Postby Qimmik » Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:16 pm

In direct speech, Caesar would say to himself: Ad exercitum mihi maturandum [est].
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Re: Passive Periphrastic

Postby Matermultorum » Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:54 am

Qimmik,

Thank you so much for your clear and detailed explanations! I think I understand and I'm looking forward to being able to sit down and read the links and get it firmly fixed in my mind.

This forum has given me hope that I can teach my son this year.
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Re: Passive Periphrastic

Postby Qimmik » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:41 pm

If you're trying to teach your son Latin, you ought to have a hard copy of Allen & Greenough at your disposal. It's an essential reference tool, and the on-line version is difficult to use. Hard copies are widely available in both reprint and used editions at reasonable prices.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=allen+%26+greenough+new+latin+grammar&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Aallen+%26+greenough+new+latin+grammar

An alternative is Gildersleeve & Lodge:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=gildersleeve+%26+lodge&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Agildersleeve+%26+lodge
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