Textkit Logo

Quam gratiam

Here's where you can discuss all things Latin. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get translation help and more!

Moderator: thesaurus

Quam gratiam

Postby pmda » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:26 pm

I can't understand this sentence:

In Orberg's LLPSI Exercitia 6 of Cap XL the following is asked:

12. Quam gratiam Dido sibi referendam esse putabat?

What (?) payment did Dido think she deserved?

answer: Gratiam sibi referendam putabat quod Troianos servaverat.

...but the answer appears to be to a different question.

'she thought she should receive payment because she saved the the Trojans'.

I took it that 'quam' is an interrogative adjective 'What payment'......

What does 'quod' mean here...?
pmda
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1072
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:15 am

Re: Quam gratiam

Postby Qimmik » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:46 pm

gratiam here means "favor"

referendam 'to be returned or repaid'

"'quam' is an interrogative adjective" -- yes

quod - 'because' + indicative.

You're right: the answer given is not an exact answer to the question.

An exact answer might be: Gratiam quam sibi refendam esse putabat Dido erat quod Troianos servaverat. But this isn't very elegant.

quod + indicative can also mean "the fact that".

Allen & Greenough 572:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0001%3Asmythp%3D572
Last edited by Qimmik on Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Qimmik
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1420
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:15 pm

Re: Quam gratiam

Postby adrianus » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:56 pm

Primò anglicè "because" legi. Tunc credi quod scripsisti, Qimmik, "that"— non satius attentè legi. Nunc "because" scribis et bonum est, concurro. Me foliam in vento sentio.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Quam gratiam

Postby pmda » Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:42 pm

But Quimmik surely your exact answer simply rephrases the original - answering the question what did she expect with a statement of why she expected it:

If the question is 'Quam gratiam..?' What reward or payment did she expect? then the exact answer must surely be along the lines of:

'Dido optavit ut Aeneas sibi in conubio coniungeret.'
pmda
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1072
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:15 am

Re: Quam gratiam

Postby Qimmik » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:05 pm

No, the question here is not what she expected in repayment but rather what favor, gratia, Dido performed which she wanted repaid to her, referre. The favor she performed was saving the Trojans.
Qimmik
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1420
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:15 pm

Re: Quam gratiam

Postby pmda » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:15 pm

d
pmda
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1072
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:15 am

Re: Quam gratiam

Postby pmda » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:30 pm

Q. Quam gratiam Dido sibi referendam esse putabat?

A. Gratiam sibi referendam putabat quod Troianos servaverat.


OK so - using literal deponent construction:

Q. What was the favour that Dido believed was worthy of repayment?

A. The favour she believed worthy of repayment was with respect [using a Whitaker's Words translation of 'quod'] to saving the Trojans.
pmda
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1072
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:15 am

Re: Quam gratiam

Postby adrianus » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:38 pm

Is there a line in Chapter XL that gives the answer?
Estne linea in capitulo quae quaestionem spectat?
Last edited by adrianus on Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Quam gratiam

Postby pmda » Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:07 pm

Nihil scribitur de hac re; sed Aeneas in sermo cum Didone ei dicit ut numquam ei in conubio coniungere promitteret.
pmda
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1072
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:15 am

Re: Quam gratiam

Postby adrianus » Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:08 pm

Secundum Orbergensem in hoc capitulo, sic Dido dicit: "In litus eiectum, egentem te excepi et—demens—partem regni dedi, classem amissam restitui, socios a morte servavi!""

"Gratiam sibi referendam putabat quod Troianos servaverat" = "She figured that favour/gratitude/esteem was due[/ought to be given] to her because she had helped the Trojans."

Sed verum ambiguum est quod et hoc habes:

"She figured that a service/favour [given to Aeneas] was due[/ought to be repaid] to her, namely that [/the fact that] she had helped the Trojans." This fits the question "quam gratiam...?" // quod aptum est quaestioni citatae.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm


Return to Learning Latin

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot] and 73 guests