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Question concerning...Nuntii Latini

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Question concerning...Nuntii Latini

Postby Carolus Raeticus » Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:50 pm

Salvete!

I have a question about the use of distributive numbers in a Nuntii Latini Finnici-news item:
QUID WWF DE MARI BALTICO DIXERIT

Ordo mundi naturae tuendae (WWF) censet Finnis non contigisse, ut id, quod de eiectamentis in Mari Baltico deminuendis animo proposuissent, consequerentur. Copiam nitri, quae ex Finnia in Mare Balticum deferretur, inde ab annis nonagesimis saeculi praeteriti quaternis centesimis (4%), vim phosphori autem vicenis (20%) deminutam esse, cum Finni voluissent quantitatem illorum elementorum ante annum praeteritum ad dimidiam partem redigere.


The meaning is clear, but why did the author use the distributive numbers quaternis and vicenis? I would have expected the ordinary cardinals quattuor and viginti. According to Allen & Greenough's New Latin Grammar (§ 136, 137) the distributive answers to the questions how many of each? or how many at a time?. If we were talking about a yearly decrease of effluents, the use of distributives would be understandable, but here? Does not the distributive imply two or more instances, which is not the case in this example because the period of time between the 1990's and 2007 as a whole is being considered.

Some more examples from the Nuntii Latini Finnici:

  • Catenae mercatoriae Americanae rettulerunt venditiones denis vel vicenis centesimis (10-20%) cecidisse: The use of distributives in this example seems to imply (at least to me) that sales fell by 10-20% for each of the retail chains. However, I believe that what is actually meant is that the sales for retail chains considered as a whole fell by 10-20%. But why then the distributive numbers?
  • Huc accedit, quod emissiones carbonei dioxydati iam sexennio proxime futuro vicenis centesimis (20%) deminuentur: Here vicenis seems to mean that there is an annual decrease by 20%, whereas it is more likely planned that the emissions are planned to fall by 20% in the 6-year period as a whole.
Am I missing something here? Can anyone help?

Valete,

Carolus Raeticus
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Re: Question concerning...Nuntii Latini

Postby adrianus » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:41 pm

a percentage = centesima pars vel centesima [pars]
2 percent = centesimae binae or two times decimal parts or two decimal parts at a time / together
To have fallen by how many percentage parts [//by how many times a percentage part at a time]? to have fallen by four percentage parts at a time [//by four times a percentage part].
Quotiens centesimis [partibus] cecidisse? Quaternis centesimis [partibus] cecidisse.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Question concerning...Nuntii Latini

Postby Carolus Raeticus » Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:29 pm

Ave Adriane!

adrianus wrote:a percentage = centesima pars vel centesima [pars]
2 percent = centesimae binae or two times decimal parts or two decimal parts at a time / together
To have fallen by how many percentage parts [//by how many times a percentage part at a time]? to have fallen by four percentage parts at a time [//by four times a percentage part].
Quotiens centesimis [partibus] cecidisse? Quaternis centesimis [partibus] cecidisse.


Hm, that sounds a bit like rule §137 c from A&G:
In multiplication: as, bis bîna, twice two; [b]ter septênis diêbus[/i], in thrice seven days

Except, that according to this rule the "numerator" should be a numeral adverb (bis, ter, quater, ...), and the "denominator" a distributive. So, the examples ought to read like this?

  • Copiam nitri, quae ex Finnia in Mare Balticum deferretur, inde ab annis nonagesimis saeculi praeteriti quater centesimis (4%), vim phosphori autem viciens [centesimis partibus] (20%) deminutam esse...
  • Catenae mercatoriae Americanae rettulerunt venditiones deciens vel viciens centesimis [partibus] (10-20%) cecidisse.

However, this is not the way the Nuntii deals with percentages. Some more examples which seem to use rule §135e from A&G (about fractions):

  • Quam manifestam victoriam suffragii die Dominico habiti reportaverit, inde patet, quod sententiarum unam et sexaginta centesimas (61%) sibi paravit, cum adversarius eius Geraldo Alcmin votorum nonnisi undequadraginta centesimas (39%) consequeretur.
  • Antagonista eius, pristinus minister Sauli Niinistö, quem praesertim fautores factionum dextrarum praesidentem fore sperabant, votorum amplius duodequinquaginta centesimas (48,2%) collegit.
  • Suffragiis vesperi computatis apparuit praesidentem hodiernam Tarja Halonen, cui iterum eligendae partes sinistrae operam navaverant, sententiarum quadraginta sex centesimas (46%) accepisse.
  • Ab ea secundus evasit pristinus minister Sauli Niinistö, candidatus factionis conservativae, quippe qui votorum viginti quattuor centesimis (24%) potiretur.
  • Tertium locum obtinuit princeps minister Matti Vanhanen duodeviginti suffragiorum centesimas (18%) consecutus.
  • Ex his sexaginta fere centesimae (59,3%) novam legem sustinuerunt, circiter quadraginta centesimae (40,7%) mutationem noluerunt.
  • In regione Helsinkiensi numerus novarum habitationum non venditarum est minor, circiter sedecim centesimarum (16%).
  • In Iaponia plures homines septuagenarii sunt quam umquam ante, nam plus viginti miliones numerantur et paene sedecim centesimas (15,8%) totius populi faciunt.
  • Ex illa investigatione homines, qui eo defectu laborant, sexaginta centesimis(60%) maius periculum subeunt quam alii.
  • Frequentia suffragantium ad quadraginta centesimas (40%) descendit, cum ante quinque annos quadraginta quinque et dimidium (45,5%) fuisset.
  • Apud Finnos ex civibus suffragium habentibus quadraginta centesimae (40,2%) ad urnas accesserunt.

Hm, quite difficult this subject.

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Re: Question concerning...Nuntii Latini

Postby adrianus » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:38 pm

Isn't it that distributive numbers refer to rates? at a rate of 2 percent, so binae centesimae = [a rate of] 2 percent per month
Nonnè numerus distributivus celeritam per tempus significat? binae centesimae [per mensem]
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Question concerning...Nuntii Latini

Postby Carolus Raeticus » Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:30 pm

Salvus sis, Adriane.

adrianus wrote:Isn't it that distributive numbers refer to rates? at a rate of 2 percent, so binae centesimae = [a rate of] 2 percent per month
Nonnè numerus distributivus celeritam per tempus significat? binae centesimae [per mensem]


Yes, something like that is probably the solution to this conundrum. All other examples use the distributives as subjects or objects. But that does not make it easier for me to wrap my head around it, because it seems to be against the rules as explained either by A&G (New Latin Grammar) or Charles E. Bennett (also New Latin Grammar--not very inventive folk those grammarians ,-).

Vale,

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