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declension case order...

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declension case order...

Postby Cleo » Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:37 pm

I am learning latin and helping my 6 yo son with his latin too. Yeah, a bit young, but he chose it.

For me, I have Wheelock, and for my son we did Prima Latina. I have just bought a new book for him, that's in French, our mother tongue. Well, surprise... The declension cases are NOT listed in the same order!

As someone with experience (aka an older person), it doesn't bother me too much, but it can seriously screw up a youngster trying to learn declensions.

In French books, it seems the latin declensions are listed as
Nominative
Vocative
Accusative
Genitive
Dative
Ablative

I'm totally taken aback by this. I sorta expected that, after a millenium or so, this would have been standardised.

How is it in other languages?

Anyone with suggestions to avoid getting my son so mixed up he will give Latin up? That's not the goal...
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Postby Ulpianus » Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:06 pm

It's a curse, isn't it. In England we use the same order as the French one you list (NVAGDA). It was introduced here in the late nineteenth century. It does actually have some advantages, because the similarity of NVA in many declensions makes for patterns that are easier to memorise. And some disadvantages too, of course.

If you want stuff in English that sticks to the same order as the French, anything from the UK will do.
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Postby Episcopus » Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:08 pm

That's nasty! The stem from any noun is achieved by removing the inflection from the Genitive Singular, thus the Genitive should come after the Nominative certainly. For me they are listed:

N
G
D
Acc
Abl.
(Voc)

The Vocative usually isn't listed as it's the same as Nominative in nearly all cases, the 2nd declension -us to -e being known, and some irregulars mi fili etc.

Could you PM me and tell me the french translation of the top paragraph above! Which words I wonder do the french use for 'stem' etc.

Thanks :wink:
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Postby whiteoctave » Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:26 pm

nvagda born and bred!

As far as i know the English version is a wilful corruption of the case order introduced by Byzantine grammarians, which is maintained in most other countries.

~dave
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Postby Episcopus » Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:28 pm

I hear Busta Rhymes "Everybody Rise Again" resounding about this mother! "I'm ba-ack! I'm about to Picasso a new picture for you silly truckers!"

Whiteoctave ubi fuisti tu?!
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Postby Cleo » Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:53 pm

Episcopus wrote:That's nasty! The stem from any noun is achieved by removing the inflection from the Genitive Singular, thus the Genitive should come after the Nominative certainly.

Thanks :wink:


C'est affreux! Le radical de n'importe quel nom peut être trouvé en enlevant la terminaison du génitif singulier, par conséquent le génitif devrait être listé après le nominatif.

(here's your translation!)
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Postby Cleo » Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:55 pm

Ulpianus wrote:If you want stuff in English that sticks to the same order as the French, anything from the UK will do.


Cool! One of the books we're waiting for is from the UK. (Minimus)
Does that mean the NGDAAV is an american approach? Or what?
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Postby Episcopus » Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:14 pm

Lovely translation! Read it like English :lol:
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Postby ingrid70 » Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:42 pm

Cleo wrote:
Ulpianus wrote:If you want stuff in English that sticks to the same order as the French, anything from the UK will do.


Cool! One of the books we're waiting for is from the UK. (Minimus)
Does that mean the NGDAAV is an american approach? Or what?


I don't know about other countries, but here in the Netherlands, NGDAAV is standard too.

Ingrid
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Postby klewlis » Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:11 am

I do it NVAGDA, contra Wheelock, because that is how I first learned it in Greek and it's easier to stick to one system...
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Postby Kerastes » Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:49 am

Cleo wrote:Does that mean the NGDAAV is an american approach? Or what?

Almost. That's the order used in Allen and Greenough's New Latin Grammar (1903), though I don't know how widespread.

The standard order in the USA, and I believe among the Latin grammarians, is Nominative, Genitive, Dative, Accusative, Vocative, Ablative. I know, it doesn't make sense, but there it is. It is used in American books on Latin, Greek, German, and probably other languages, though, of course, Greek and German have no ablative and German no vocative.

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Postby Moerus » Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:59 pm

N V Acc G D Abl est un ordre qu'on suit parfois en Belgique aussi. Elle est inventée pour des raisons didactiques! Dans beaucoup de cas, par exemple au neutre, l' accusatif resemble au N et au V morphologiquement! Il ya de même beaucuop de ressemblaces entre le D et l' Abl., par exemple au pluriel.
N V G D Acc Abl est en effet l'ordre usuel de l'antiquité même! Ceci est l'ordre que les anciens grammariens du 6e s. aprè Chr. nous ont donné. Purquoi cet ordre, on ne le sait pas vraiment. Mais certains livres veulent préserver cet ordre ancien. L'ordre dans lequelle on veut étudier les cas n'est pas très important. Les anciens du 1er s. distinguaient principallement le N (et le V), ce qu'ils appellaient les casus recti, les autres les casus obliqui. Souvent le V n'a pas de place distingué, parce qu'il est souvent égal à d'autres cas et parce qu'il n' est pas vraiment un cas comme les autres! Le V n' a pas vraiment une fonction dans la phrase, comme tous les autres cas! Il ne fait que de mentionner la personne qu'on appelle, mais une appellation se situe en effet en dehors de la phrase! On pourrait dire que c'est un peu un cas spécial: et pur cette raison il n'a pas vraiment de place dans le systeme. Au début le N était ausse chez les anciens le seul casus rectus. Et puisqu'on ne pouvait pas compter le V sous les casus obliqui, on l'a ajouter au casus recti, seulement parce qu'on devait le mettre quelque part!

J'espère de vous avoir aider un petit peu,

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Postby Episcopus » Tue Apr 06, 2004 9:48 pm

Je suis d'accord avec ce que tu as dit au sujet du Vocatif! La plupart du temps ça ne diffère pas du Nominatif donc il n'est guère necessaire qu'on le mette dans cet ordre de cas. Moi je ne le considère jamais - pourquoi devrait on l'ecrire s'il est toujours la meme chose? Il se peut que certains n'apprécient nullement cet ordre de cas qui ont accompagné tant d'étudiants Americans (et moi bien sur), mais ils ne devraient pas s'en inquieter! Il n'y a point de demon qui vienne du premier siecle, forcant votre enfant á utiliser l'ordre qu'ont tant adoré les grammariens de cette époque-lá! Je partage tes sentiments, il n'est pas important de se disputer au sujet d'un ordre de cas: pourvu que cela ne se change pas (surtout pour les petits enfants comme le votre). Pendant que J'apprennais le latin avec le livre formidable de Benjamin L. D'Ooge, J'étais très heureux qu'il eut décidé de ne pas suivre l'ordre ancien, honnetement! C'a fait que Je pusse plus facilement apprendre. Pourtant, chacun est different...
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It's only a problem if....

Postby Cleo » Wed Apr 07, 2004 1:17 am

Declension order is only a problem when you have a parent, like me, with no knowledge of Latin, and a young son, like mine, who wants to learn..

Said parent picks one curriculum, which has the kids learn "declension chants", and then moves to a curriculum that's probably better suited, but where the declension are listed in another order!!

Talk about messing up a kid's mind... sigh...
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