Pronouns as Subjects

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Amy
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Pronouns as Subjects

Post by Amy »

I'm confused about a sentence from Jenney's First Year Latin:

The people whose courage you praised are now citizens.
Can that be "Qui virtuem laudavisti nunc cives sunt" (letting qui imply people, since it's masculine plural, like substantives do)
Or is it necessary to add "Ei" before the qui, making it "Ei qui virtuem laudavisti..."
Either? Neither?
Thanks :D

Kasper
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Post by Kasper »

[i]Qui [/i] and all other forms of it are often used as 'those who' or 'they who' &c. However, it seems odd to me to use 'qui' which is a nominative.

Although feeling like a first time pilot in the battle of britain i would suggest:

"Homines, virtutem quorum laudavisti, nunc sunt cives."
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”

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benissimus
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Post by benissimus »

Kasper's translation is flawless. However, if you really have your heart set on removing the antecedent, you could simply have...
Quorum virtutem laudavisti nunc cives sunt or something similar.
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae

Kasper
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Post by Kasper »

My translation may have been factually correct, but benissimus sure demonstrates the beauty of latin.
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”

Amy
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Post by Amy »

Thank you both so much! I just discovered a gaping hole in my understanding, followed by a big "ohhh" moment ten minutes later...

whiteoctave
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Post by whiteoctave »

I think if the reverse relative construction (which is very nice) is to be used - i.e. when the relative pronoun precedes what would normally be called the antecedent - it is advisable to insert a pronoun to pick up the relative. Here we have "Of whose virtue I praised, [sc. these] are now citizens". I hate doing it, like most of us, but I think hi/hae/illi/illae is needed.

~dave

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