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ὡς τὸν (Taylor Beyond GCSE)

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ὡς τὸν (Taylor Beyond GCSE)

Postby daivid » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:58 pm

This is from John Taylor Beyond GCSE page 42. Though based on Herodotos it diverges from Herodotos very significantly.

επειτα δε οικαδε απελθων τὸν παιδα τὸν μονογενη ετη τρια και δεκα γεγονότα ὡς τὸν Ἀστυάγη ἔπεμψεν.

Then having returned home his son his one-and-only thirteen years having become ὡς τὸν to-Astuage he sent.

My problem is that I can't see what "ὡς τὸν" is adding to the meaning.

My thanks to anyone who can give me a pointer.
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Re: ὡς τὸν (Taylor Beyond GCSE)

Postby Qimmik » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:50 pm

ὡς here is a preposition meaning "to" (a person). τὸν is just the article with the proper name Ἀστυάγη.

"Then, having returned home, he sent his only son, who was thirteen years old, to Astyages."

Smyth secs. 1702, 3003.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0007%3Asmythp%3D1702

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0007%3Asmythp%3D3003

LSJ s.v. ὡς:

III. ὡς as a Prep., prop. in cases where the object is a person, not a place: once in Hom., “ὡς αἰεὶ τὸν ὁμοῖον ἄγει θεὸς ὡς τὸν ὁμοῖον” Od.17.218 (v.l. ἐς τὸν ὁμοῖον, cf. “αἶνος Ὁμηρικός, αἰὲν ὁμοῖον ὡς θεός . . ἐς τὸν ὁμοῖον ἄγει” Call.Aet.1.1.10; ἔρχεται . . ἕκαστον τὸ ὅμοιον ὡς τὸ ὅ., τὸ πυκνὸν ὡς τὸ πυκνόν κτλ. (with v.l. ἐς) Hp.Nat.Puer.17), but possibly ὡς . . ὥς as . . so, in Od. l.c.; also in Hdt., “ἐσελθεῖν ὡς τὴν θυγατέρα” 2.121.έ: freq. in Att., “ὡς Ἆγιν ἐπρεσβεύσαντο” Th.8.5, etc.; “ἀφίκετο ὡς Περδίκκαν καὶ ἐς τὴν Χαλκιδικήν” Id.4.79; “ἀπέπλευσαν ἐς Φώκαιαν . . ὡς Ἀστύοχον” Id.8.31; ναῦς ἐς τὸν Ἑλλήσποντον ὡς Φαρνάβαζον ἀποπέμπειν ib.39; “ὡς ἐκεῖνον πλέομεν ὥσπερ πρὸς δεσπότην” Isoc. 4.121; the examples of ὡς with names of places are corrupt, e.g. “ὡς τὴν Μίλητον” Th.8.36 (ἐς cod. Vat.); ὡς Ἄβυδον one Ms. in Id.8.103; “ὡς τὸ πρόσθεν” Ar.Ach.242: in S.OT1481 ὡς τὰς ἀδελφὰς . . τὰς ἐμὰς χέρας is equiv. to ὡς ἐμὲ τὸν ἀδελφόν; in Id.Tr.366 δόμους ὡς τούσδε house = household.
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Re: ὡς τὸν (Taylor Beyond GCSE)

Postby daivid » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:05 pm

daivid wrote:επειτα δε οικαδε απελθων τὸν παιδα τὸν μονογενη ετη τρια και δεκα γεγονότα ὡς τὸν Ἀστυάγη ἔπεμψεν.
.

Qimmik wrote:ὡς here is a preposition meaning "to" (a person). τὸν is just the article with the proper name Ἀστυάγη.

Thanks very much - the sentence makes a lot more sense now.
However, shouldn't the accusative be Ἀστυάγην?
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Re: ὡς τὸν (Taylor Beyond GCSE)

Postby NateD26 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:19 pm

This proper name is part of the consonant σ declension where a sigma
between the vowel of the stem and the vowel of the ending was dropped and gave way to
lengthening. Its accusative ends in alpha and the contracted ending in eta.
Here's Smyth section about it.
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Re: ὡς τὸν (Taylor Beyond GCSE)

Postby daivid » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:16 pm

NateD26 wrote:This proper name is part of the consonant σ declension where a sigma
between the vowel of the stem and the vowel of the ending was dropped and gave way to
lengthening. Its accusative ends in alpha and the contracted ending in eta.
Here's Smyth section about it.


Now I see where I went wrong. I jumped to the conclusion that Ἀστυάγης was a masculine first declension noun and from then on was unable to shake off that belief in the face of contrary evidence.

Thanks to both of you.
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Re: ὡς τὸν (Taylor Beyond GCSE)

Postby Markos » Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:47 pm

daivid: Now I see where I went wrong. I jumped to the conclusion that Ἀστυάγης was a masculine first declension noun and from then on was unable to shake off that belief in the face of contrary evidence.


There ought to be a term for this. The meaning of the forms one learns first tend to stick in your head and you make mistakes based on this. Because I learned λόγος, λόγου, κτλ first, I used to often mistake a form like θητός (from θής, θητίς, θητί ) for a nominative instead of genitive. Because I learned λύω, λύεις, λύει before I learned γένος, γένους, γένει, I would misconstrue μένει as "he waits" instead of "in strength," and fail to process all sorts of sentences. I still make these mistakes, for that matter, but not as often.

I'm not sure what, if anything, can be done to prevent this. An argument can be made, I suppose, to introduce the less frequent homographic forms earlier, but I'm not sure how practical this.
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Re: ὡς τὸν (Taylor Beyond GCSE)

Postby daivid » Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:57 pm

Markos wrote:There ought to be a term for this. The meaning of the forms one learns first tend to stick in your head and you make mistakes based on this. Because I learned λόγος, λόγου, κτλ first, I used to often mistake a form like θητός (from θής, θητίς, θητί ) for a nominative instead of genitive. Because I learned λύω, λύεις, λύει before I learned γένος, γένους, γένει, I would misconstrue μένει as "he waits" instead of "in strength," and fail to process all sorts of sentences. I still make these mistakes, for that matter, but not as often.

I'm not sure what, if anything, can be done to prevent this. An argument can be made, I suppose, to introduce the less frequent homographic forms earlier, but I'm not sure how practical this.


I think textbooks are right to leave it to late when the more frequent forms are set in your brain but it would help if when they did introduce them they did a bit more than merely mention them in passing.

It has occurred to me to practice words like Astyages by writing a story using the all the 3rd declension words of that type that I have encountered but they a rather mixed bunch.
(Polycrates, trireme and Socrates) :(
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Re: ὡς τὸν (Taylor Beyond GCSE)

Postby NateD26 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:50 pm

daivid wrote:
Markos wrote:There ought to be a term for this. The meaning of the forms one learns first tend to stick in your head and you make mistakes based on this. Because I learned λόγος, λόγου, κτλ first, I used to often mistake a form like θητός (from θής, θητίς, θητί ) for a nominative instead of genitive. Because I learned λύω, λύεις, λύει before I learned γένος, γένους, γένει, I would misconstrue μένει as "he waits" instead of "in strength," and fail to process all sorts of sentences. I still make these mistakes, for that matter, but not as often.

I'm not sure what, if anything, can be done to prevent this. An argument can be made, I suppose, to introduce the less frequent homographic forms earlier, but I'm not sure how practical this.


I think textbooks are right to leave it to late when the more frequent forms are set in your brain but it would help if when they did introduce them they did a bit more than merely mention them in passing.

It has occurred to me to practice words like Astyages by writing a story using the all the 3rd declension words of that type that I have encountered but they a rather mixed bunch.
(Polycrates, trireme and Socrates) :(

The big question for me is how do you determine which of the more frequent forms to teach first?
ἀνήρ is used quite a lot, but you only learn it in the "3rd declension", well after you've exhausted
several notebooks to review paradigms of the alpha/eta and omega declensions. οἶδα and φημί are
essential to every bit of narrative, yet I at least, in my textbook/class, have only learnt them pretty
late into the semester. I don't understand who decides those seemingly arbitrary and wholly illogical
rules for what to teach first.
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Re: ὡς τὸν (Taylor Beyond GCSE)

Postby Markos » Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:37 pm

Nate:
I don't understand who decides those seemingly arbitrary and wholly illogical
rules for what to teach first.


As Tevye said in Fiddler on the Roof, "tradition!"

Machen introduces the imperative forms in chapter 27 out of 33, but Rico has imperatives in the second lesson because he believes in T.P.R., where students first learn the language by responding to commands.

Bill Mounce gives all the noun declensions before introducing verbs. Gerda Seligson gives lots of practice with the third person singular before introducing any other verb forms. I know of books that regulate the dual and the optative to appendixes.

I've yet to see a text book that covers μι verbs before ω verbs, but if you think about, this makes a certain sense.

Even on lesson 1, where presumably everyone would start with the alpha-bet, wouldn't it make more sense to introduce a few letters at a time and give lots of practice using words with those letters first, before teaching the others. Maybe introduce the ones that look closest to the English first?
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Re: ὡς τὸν (Taylor Beyond GCSE)

Postby pster » Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:25 am

NateD26 wrote:I don't understand who decides those seemingly arbitrary and wholly illogical
rules for what to teach first.


I may put up a thread sometime about teaching. Like almost everything, there is a spread when it comes to teachers and textbook writers. Only about 15% are good. And maybe less than 5% are extremely good. There are no rules for when things get introduced. A great teacher anticipates problems students will have. But that is path dependent. By taking one path through the material, different problems will need to be anticipated.

Fortunately, serious students can learn even from mediocre teachers. What kind of efficiency is at issue? 2-1 perhaps. The extremely good teacher leads the student through the material in half the time.

What I may start a thread about is this: Why the hell don't Greek textbooks make extensive use of all the words in English with Greek roots? Even if a very good teacher has a good reason, the burden of proof surely is on him to expain himself because prima facie it seems quite absurd not to. Teachers in the sciences make appeals to our intuitions about nature all the time. But Greek teachers refuse to avail themselves of all the Greek we already know?!?!?! I'm tempted to use very strong language right here. They may follow tradition, but tradition should not be the primary guide in the class room. Even if somebody gives me some devils advocate BS for why it is OK to not use all the Greek we already know, it is too late. That case needed to be made in the introduction to the book.

There are no rules for how to teach. But there are lots and lots of bad teachers. Indeed, maybe the lack of rules explains all the bad teaching.

I could tell you stories about other fields where everybody does the same dumb things simply because most people are rank conformists. They can't imagine that they all have been doing things the wrong way forever. Consider, for example, doctors and their residency ritual where they work 16 hour shifts. Is that a rule? No, just rank human conformist stupidity.
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Re: ὡς τὸν (Taylor Beyond GCSE)

Postby demetri » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:50 am

pster, you pose an interesting question. Similar thoughts have occurred to me as well, but only half seriously.

Perhaps such an approach (which seems so logical) could morph into a full course in itself, and that alone is undesirable.
Previously my opinion was that the profs just do not want to field questions as to why so many words coming through to English support medieval Koine and modern pronunciation rather than the favored academic scheme(s) they themselves learned and now teach.

Just a thought...
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Re: ὡς τὸν (Taylor Beyond GCSE)

Postby daivid » Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:54 am

All Ancient Greek text books teach declensions one after the other. The approach I've met learning Serbo-Croat was to learn the cases first. This was also the approach used when I briefly tried learning Russian.

This seems to me a far more helpful approach as it stresses how the words are used. The approach of teaching declensions en bloc I suspect comes more naturally from a academic emphasis on analysis.
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Re: ὡς τὸν (Taylor Beyond GCSE)

Postby pster » Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:42 pm

Sorry. It was late and I was feeling particularly cranky.

It is really a combination of several things. I have taken more university courses than anybody else I have ever met and I have seen some extremely good teachers in action. And sometimes they enter material through what seems like a side door, but turns out to pay big dividends in terms of making the material more intuitively accessible. Add to that that I can tell you how countless people make their lives extremely difficult by going along with the crowd. Without getting too into specifics real mass error is a quite real phenomenon. 99% of the time or more there are trade offs to doing things one way vs. another. But ~1% of the time, there actually is a far superior way of doing things but people are simply too conformist to change. And the kicker: often such change requires no coordination with others. There was a herd of Canadian caribou that jumped off a cliff en masse. Conformism works great except when it ends in catastrophe. Lastly, I have come across a lot of cool Greek words that I already know, like κατακλυσμός and ἔξαλλος and ἄλκιμος and σύνταξις and συνάπτω. It seems to me outlandish and absurd that introductory texts aren't loaded with all these words. Give the student familiar vocabulary to soften the blow of all the difficult grammar. And use that same vocabulary to teach the student word formation principles.
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