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taylor, beyond gcse: open conditional

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taylor, beyond gcse: open conditional

Postby daivid » Sat May 04, 2013 9:22 pm

This sentence is not from one of the readings but from an exercise
but it has me stumped.

ἐάν τὰ αὐτά αὖθις ὑπίσχηται, μὴ πιστεύσῃς τῷ ῥέτορι.

the meaning must be "if he again these things promise you will not trust the orator.

However, I would have expected it in the form
ἐάν + subjunctive - future indicative.
but the subjunctive, πιστεύσῃς, is instead in the apodosis. Or maybe things are more flexible that the textbooks have led me to believe?
Finally I can't make out what tense ὑπίσχηται is (clearly it is a 2nd person singular). It looks as if it might be some kind to perfect though Taylor doesn't introduce the perfect until the next chapter.

So what am I missing?
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Re: taylor, beyond gcse: open conditional

Postby NateD26 » Sat May 04, 2013 9:40 pm

μὴ πιστεύσῃς is the negative imperative. The subjunctive usually replaces the aorist imperative
in negative commands.

I think you're right that ὑπίσχηται is the 3rd sg. subj. pf. middle-passive from ὑπισχνέομαι.
But what of the iota? It can't be the augment of the perfect. As far as I can remember, in
the perfect the augment stays throughout.

It could be pres. subj. in Ionic and Epic. (LSJ)
Last edited by NateD26 on Sat May 04, 2013 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: taylor, beyond gcse: open conditional

Postby NateD26 » Sat May 04, 2013 10:02 pm

[delete unnecessary post]
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Re: taylor, beyond gcse: open conditional

Postby daivid » Sat May 04, 2013 10:16 pm

NateD26 wrote:μὴ πιστεύσῃς is the negative imperative. The subjunctive usually replaces the aorist imperative
in negative commands.


Ahh - now it makes sense. Thanks millions.
Indeed I was kind of thinking that "It he promises these things again don't trust him" made more sense.

NateD26 wrote:I think you're right that ὑπίσχηται is the 3rd sg. subj. pf. middle-passive from ὑπισχνέομαι.
But what of the iota? It can't be the augment of the perfect. As far as I can remember, in
the perfect the augment stays throughout.


That is what all my textbooks tell me. Perseus also doesn't recognize that form. It couldn't be a typo could it?
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Re: taylor, beyond gcse: open conditional

Postby daivid » Sat May 04, 2013 10:22 pm

NateD26 wrote:μὴ πιστεύσῃς is the negative imperative. The subjunctive usually replaces the aorist imperative
in negative commands.

I think you're right that ὑπίσχηται is the 3rd sg. subj. pf. middle-passive from ὑπισχνέομαι.
But what of the iota? It can't be the augment of the perfect. As far as I can remember, in
the perfect the augment stays throughout.

It could be pres. subj. in Ionic and Epic. (LSJ)


Actually Ionic makes a lot of sense because Taylor is quite keen on Heroditos. So thanks very much, for now the grammar all makes sense.
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Re: taylor, beyond gcse: open conditional

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Sun May 05, 2013 5:31 pm

Just happened on to this parsing site: http://www.lexigram.gr/lex/arch/ὑπίσχηται

results for ὑπίσχηται

λήμμα: ὑπέχω
μέρος: ρήμα
φωνή: μέση
χρόνος: ενεστώτας
έγκλιση: υποτακτική
αριθμός: ενικός
πρόσωπο: τρίτο
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Re: taylor, beyond gcse: open conditional

Postby daivid » Sun May 05, 2013 6:13 pm

C. S. Bartholomew wrote:Just happened on to this parsing site: http://www.lexigram.gr/lex/arch/ὑπίσχηται



An interesting site - it will take time for me to understand the results but it looks as if it will be worth the effort.
Many thanks.
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Re: taylor, beyond gcse: open conditional

Postby IreneY » Tue May 07, 2013 8:43 am

googletranslate or any other such translation tool should give you accurate translations and you can always PM me (or any other member speaking modern Greek).
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Re: taylor, beyond gcse: open conditional

Postby Qimmik » Tue May 07, 2013 12:38 pm

Here's what Google Translate does with the first sentence of Demosthenes' On the Crown:

Chiefly men of Athens, percent gods wish pasais And all things, hath osin evnoian For I Sincerely tῇ tech cities and pasin unto you, tosaftin yparxai me although you into toutoni fight, persuade opera Esti malisth Hyperion you and yours piety TE and glory, this parastisai the gods unto you, him not poiisasthai Litigation Tips on how akouein upon you see me (schetlion gAR if Ling Tut ce), but the laws and oath, in ᾧ toward EMPL top dikaiois and this is written, the dummy amfoin akroasasthai. Tut d Estin th only non prokategnokenai zero, nor it the evnoian struck voltage equal apodounai, but it and tῇ classes and tῇ apologiᾳ as vevoulitai And proῄritai each competitor, so AASP chrisasthai.
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Re: taylor, beyond gcse: open conditional

Postby Markos » Tue May 07, 2013 1:11 pm

Here's what Google Translate does with the first sentence of Demosthenes' On the Crown:


I think Irene meant the Google Translate for Modern Greek, which presumably works as well as those for other common languages. I don't know what needs to be done to get the program to work for Ancient Greek. I would think that there is a demand for it. My understanding is that the Latin program sort of works okay.
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Re: taylor, beyond gcse: open conditional

Postby daivid » Tue May 07, 2013 1:31 pm

IreneY wrote:googletranslate or any other such translation tool should give you accurate translations and you can always PM me (or any other member speaking modern Greek).

I don't know why I didn't think of Google translate. Some of the translations are very odd.
Under voice google gives waist but when a likely answer is middle it isn't so difficult to suss it out.
In short google gives me just sufficient help to make the site usable.

Thank you very much.
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Re: taylor, beyond gcse: open conditional

Postby Qimmik » Tue May 07, 2013 2:02 pm

I sing of arms and the man, who first from the shores of Troy, exiled by fate, came to the Lavinian shore of Italy, a lot of bragging and on both land sea by the force of the gods on account of the mindful of savage wrath: but he suffered much in war until he could found a city, and bring his gods to Latium, whence the Latin race, the Alban fathers and the high walls of Rome.

Google Translate does a reasonably good job on the beginning of the Aeneid. ("A lot of bragging" doesn't quite capture the original, though.) It even unpacks the hypallage (or is it anallage?) of altae moenia Romae, transferring the epithet from Rome itself back to the walls where it belongs. But I wonder whether the impeccable translation up to "Italy" was deliberately put into the software on the expectation that precisely this passage would be used as a test.
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Re: taylor, beyond gcse: open conditional

Postby IreneY » Tue May 07, 2013 2:43 pm

I was most definitely referring to modern Greek and how to make the linked site easier to use for non MG speakers! It never occurred to me that someone would try to use it for ancient Greek! True, since μέση also means "waist" in MG it's one of the translations (apparently the main one) but I thought it'd help.

P.S. Now I have to find Demosthenes' On the Crown! :D
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Re: taylor, beyond gcse: open conditional

Postby Qimmik » Tue May 07, 2013 4:09 pm

Irene, here's the beginning of the Greek text of Demosthenes' On the Crown online:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0071%3Aspeech%3D18%3Asection%3D1

There is an excellent contemporary edition with notes in the Cambridge Green and Yellow series:

http://www.amazon.com/Demosthenes-Crown-Cambridge-Greek-Classics/dp/0521629306/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1367942870&sr=8-1&keywords=demosthenes+on+the+crown+yunis
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