Textkit Logo

Starting the study of latin...Adler vs Wheelock

Here's where you can discuss all things Latin. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get translation help and more!

Moderator: thesaurus

Starting the study of latin...Adler vs Wheelock

Postby froggg » Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:10 am

I've first started with Wheelock, which I found pretty neat and clear in its exposition, although I didn't like how the information was fragmented between the chapters (a bit of verbs, then a couple of declension, then some other verbs... my mind can't stand the stress of not knowing when I'm going to complete one subject).

Then I read an article about how to teach yourself latin, which suggested the combined study of Adler's "A practical grammar..." and "Lingua Latina per se illustrata", I looked at a few excerpts from the two books, and the advice somewhat clicked with me, so I decided to switch over. My problem is that Adler's rules for duration and accentuation seems different and more complex than those of Wheelock. Let alone the difference between acute and circumflex, which was absent in Wheelock but I guess I can somewhat intuit from analogy with the pronunciation of modern languages, but I have a couple of doubts that are impeding my progress.

1] In some places where Wheelock puts a "long" macron, Adler puts a "normal" macron (which, he says, indicates that the vocal could be either long or short). In those cases, should I consider the vocal long, in order to decide how to put the accent? Or the accent depends on how the word is pronounced in a particular situation? (ie. if you decide to prononuce that vocal long the word gets a kind of accent, if short it gets a different one).

2] Adler states that he will give all the vocabulary with indications about the duration of the vocals, so that one can then put the right accents on the words, but it seems to me that this information is actually missing. To make just one example, the first word he presents is "charta", and he doesn't give the duration of the first "a", which I need to choose between the circumflex and acute accent.
froggg
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:17 am

Re: Starting the study of latin...Adler vs Wheelock

Postby adrianus » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:24 pm

"Either long or short" means that the evidence is lacking to say which is correct for the vowel length in the syllable in that particular word in the classical period.
"Aut longa aut correpta" hoc dicere vult: caret vestigium aevo classico quod quantitatem litterae vocalis per quoddam vocabulum monstrat.

De Chartâ. Si macron caret, brevis vocalis. Secundum Adler grammaticosque antiquos, acutum est accentum syllabae penultimae positione longae ante syllabam brevem ultimam. Solùm circumflectitur penultima naturâ longa ante ultimam brevem.
Concerning Charta. If the macron is missing, the vowel is short. According to Adler and the ancient grammarians, the accent on a penultimate syllable long by position before a short ultimate is acute. The penultimate is only a circumflex when the penultimate is long by nature and the last syllable short.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Starting the study of latin...Adler vs Wheelock

Postby froggg » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:22 pm

That makes sense. I guess my confusion originated from the fact that, unlike Wheelock, Adler marks short vowels with their own macron in some occasions.

About the "charta" example: in Adler's scheme a penultimate syllable long-by-position would get the acute, but what if it is also long-by-nature? I was interpreting the "long-by-position" cases as "when it is long only by position, but not by nature".
froggg
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:17 am

Re: Starting the study of latin...Adler vs Wheelock

Postby Carolus Raeticus » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:50 pm

Salve Frogg!

Welcome to Latin, Frogg. If you use Adler's Practical Grammar of the Latin Language, do not forget the answer key to the exercises contained in it. It can be found at Archive.org. Accidentally, I am currently transcribing the exercises to create a stand-alone version of these. They are useful, even when not using Adler's Practical Grammar. Its focus on Q&A is quite unique.

Vale,

Carolus Raeticus
Carolus Raeticus
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:46 am

Re: Starting the study of latin...Adler vs Wheelock

Postby adrianus » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:52 pm

froggg wrote:About the "charta" example: in Adler's scheme a penultimate syllable long-by-position would get the acute, but what if it is also long-by-nature? I was interpreting the "long-by-position" cases as "when it is long only by position, but not by nature".

Secundum grammaticos antiquos, solùm ante ultimam brevem penultima naturâ longa circumflectitur.
According to the ancient grammarians, the penultimate has a circumflex accent only when the penultimate is long by nature and the last syllable short.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Starting the study of latin...Adler vs Wheelock

Postby adrianus » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:56 pm

froggg wrote:I guess my confusion originated from the fact that, unlike Wheelock, Adler marks short vowels with their own macron in some occasions.

That I don't get. Where is there an example of that?
Id non capio. Ubi est exemplum?
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Starting the study of latin...Adler vs Wheelock

Postby froggg » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:04 am

(post deleted... I double posted by mistake)
Last edited by froggg on Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
froggg
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:17 am

Re: Starting the study of latin...Adler vs Wheelock

Postby froggg » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:05 am

adrianus wrote:
froggg wrote:I guess my confusion originated from the fact that, unlike Wheelock, Adler marks short vowels with their own macron in some occasions.


That I don't get. Where is there an example of that?


For example in the first "batch" of vocabulary at page 9: Taenia has the short macron on the i, Pileus and Pileum on the e, Saccharum on the a, the genitive Salis on the a.

adrianus wrote:According to the ancient grammarians, the penultimate has a circumflex accent only when the penultimate is long by nature and the last syllable short.


But what when a syllable is long both by position and by nature? For example, let's say that the A of chArta was long, so that the penultimate syllable would be long both by nature (because of the long vocal) and by position (because of the following -rt). Then would we be in the case "long-by-position" - and thus have to put an acute accent - or would the "long-by-nature" rule as a criterion - so that we have to put a circumflex accent?
froggg
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:17 am

Re: Starting the study of latin...Adler vs Wheelock

Postby adrianus » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:47 am

Syllaba naturâ longa ante ultimam correptam circumflectitur. Correpta est littera vocalis in syllabâ quae longa positione est.
Long by nature before a short ultimate is circumflected. A syllable long by position has a short vowel so it can't be long by position also.
Last edited by adrianus on Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Starting the study of latin...Adler vs Wheelock

Postby froggg » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:10 pm

Thank you for the clarification.
froggg
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:17 am

Re: Starting the study of latin...Adler vs Wheelock

Postby adrianus » Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:17 pm

froggg wrote:For example in the first "batch" of vocabulary at page 9: Taenia has the short macron on the i, Pileus and Pileum on the e, Saccharum on the a, the genitive Salis on the a.

I understand now. That's not called a short macron. That's a breve. Macron means long; breve means short.
Capio. Id non est macron signum sed breve. Macron signum longam vocalem significat; breve brevem.

Often the breve is marked in a dictionary just for extra clarity.
Saepe monstratur breve signum ut quantitas et dein emphasis clariùs cognoscatur.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Starting the study of latin...Adler vs Wheelock

Postby froggg » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:27 am

Today I've noticed that many words that don't have macrons in Adler do have them in latinlexicon.org. Only in the first chapter: mEnsa, pIleus, sAnE (Adler reports only the final E), and others I can't remember now. Is there a reason for this? It's driving me crazy, not knowing what I can trust and having to double check everything before I can finally memorize it.
froggg
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:17 am

Re: Starting the study of latin...Adler vs Wheelock

Postby adrianus » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:37 pm

Writers and editors may disagree; they may make mistakes, too.
Auctores ac redactores inter se et dissentiant et errent.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Starting the study of latin...Adler vs Wheelock

Postby froggg » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:04 pm

adrianus wrote:Writers and editors may disagree; they may make mistakes, too.
Auctores ac redactores inter se et dissentiant et errent.


But from what I've seen up to now, Adler seems to miss almost all the macrons except those on the last vowel... from what you know, what is the correct version?
froggg
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:17 am


Return to Learning Latin

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Shenoute and 44 guests