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Gerundive or Gerund

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Gerundive or Gerund

Postby pmda » Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:54 pm

In LLPSI Orberg scripsit:

Praecipue infelix Phoenissa puero tuendo incenditur.

mmmm.. I've seen explanations of both gerundive and gerundive that talk about ablative expressing cause. Now I know one simple rule might be that since the Gerundive is an adjective that 'puero tuendo' must be a gerundive as there is a noun being described...' but there seems to be an overlap between gerundive and gerund in this regard. Can anyone point at the above sentence and give me a decisive reason why it's one or the other...?

My initial view was that it's a gerundive but only because I've seen examples about Caesar being killed which seem to follow a similar construction.
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Re: Gerundive or Gerund

Postby whsiv » Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:26 pm

Salve,

I think that tuendo is a gerund in the ablative case because it is describing how, or by what means, Dido is burned up. Now, gerunds, because they are verbal nouns, can take an object. Frequently in Latin, the object of a gerund is put into the same case as the gerund itself. This is what looks like is happening with puero - it is ablative because it is the object of an ablative gerund.

Vale!
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Re: Gerundive or Gerund

Postby pmda » Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:36 am

Hi, I don't understand how puero can be the object as the thing being gazed upon is Venus. It is the Puer who is doing the gazing..?
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Re: Gerundive or Gerund

Postby whsiv » Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:33 am

I was thinking that the line looked something like "...unfortunate Dido is burned up/consumed by looking at the boy..." in which the boy is the object of looking at
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Re: Gerundive or Gerund

Postby pmda » Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:03 pm

Egad..! you could be right... I will think about this..... In any case I'm beginning to think it is, as you say, a gerund.
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Re: Gerundive or Gerund

Postby Imber Ranae » Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:44 pm

whsiv wrote:Salve,

I think that tuendo is a gerund in the ablative case because it is describing how, or by what means, Dido is burned up. Now, gerunds, because they are verbal nouns, can take an object. Frequently in Latin, the object of a gerund is put into the same case as the gerund itself. This is what looks like is happening with puero - it is ablative because it is the object of an ablative gerund.

Vale!


If it were a gerund it would be puerum tuendo, though. puero tuendo is the gerundive equivalent of that.
Ex mala malo
bono malo uesci
quam ex bona malo
malo malo malo.
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Re: Gerundive or Gerund

Postby pmda » Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:03 am

I found on YouTube this example, given as a gerundive:

Caesar interfeciendo, Brutus et Cassius rem publicam restituerunt.

Caesar, having been killed,...

It seems, from any examples I look at, that Gerundives are always passive.

So I'm leaning towards Gerundive again but I will study all the above comments and other sources.

Thanks

Paul
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Re: Gerundive or Gerund

Postby Craig_Thomas » Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:49 am

The gerund is an active verbal noun. It's like an infinitive, except it has genitive, dative, and ablative forms, whereas an infinitive can only be nominative or accusative.

The gerundive is a passive verbal adjective. You can think of it as another participle, a future passive participle.

The gerund can take an object, but something about that construction offended the Roman ear, so they replaced the gerund with a gerundive. Logically, your initial example would be "puerum tuendo" (i.e., "from watching the boy"), but the logical object ("puer") is instead put in the gerund's case, and the gerund is replaced with a gerundive. This is called "gerundival attraction".

Your second example does not make sense as it stands. With a gerund, it would be: "Caesarem interficiendo, Brutus et Cassius rem publicam restituerunt", "Brutus and Cassius restored the republic by killing Caesar." This seems perfectly sensible, but rather than a gerund with an object we would actually be more likely to find a gerundive: "Caesare interficiendo, ..."

It will be more obvious that these are gerundives if we look at examples with plural or feminine nouns, since the gerund, being neuter and singular, cannot take the range of endings that the gerundive can:

Praecipue infelix Phoenissa puella tuenda incenditur.
Praecipue infelix Phoenissa liberis tuendis incenditur.

Iulia interficienda, Brutus et Cassius rem publicam restituerunt.
Iuliis interficiendis, Brutus et Cassius rem publicam restituerunt.


This construction always struck me as one of the weirdest things in Latin grammar, and I find I can only really understand or translate it by mentally replacing the gerundive either with the gerund or with the perfect participle.
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Re: Gerundive or Gerund

Postby pmda » Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:48 pm

Craig, actually it's my mistake. I should have written Caesare interficiendo....
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Re: Gerundive or Gerund

Postby whsiv » Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:37 pm

I humbly stand corrected. Thanks for the additions Imber Ranae and Craig.
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