τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς
- pster
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 1089
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:05 am
- Location: Magna Graecia
τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς
...ὁρῶν ποίαν ἄν τις ὀξυτέραν ἢ μείζονα λάβοι μεταβολὴν τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς τῆς γε Ῥωμαίοις συμβάσης...
Am I correct in reading the bolded phrase as the adverbial "during these times of ours"? If so, then what I find a little weird is the use of both a genitive τῶν and an accusative ἡμᾶς together in a time expression. Or have I somehow misread the whole comparison?
Thoughts?
Thanks in advance.
Am I correct in reading the bolded phrase as the adverbial "during these times of ours"? If so, then what I find a little weird is the use of both a genitive τῶν and an accusative ἡμᾶς together in a time expression. Or have I somehow misread the whole comparison?
Thoughts?
Thanks in advance.
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 789
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:14 am
- Contact:
Re: τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς
I'm throwing a wild guess here. Could it function as genitive partitive to the genitive of comparisonpster wrote:...ὁρῶν ποίαν ἄν τις ὀξυτέραν ἢ μείζονα λάβοι μεταβολὴν τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς τῆς γε Ῥωμαίοις συμβάσης...
Am I correct in reading the bolded phrase as the adverbial "during these times of ours"? If so, then what I find a little weird is the use of both a genitive τῶν and an accusative ἡμᾶς together in a time expression. Or have I somehow misread the whole comparison?
Thoughts?
Thanks in advance.
τῆς γε Ῥωμαίοις συμβάσης? "...than at least the Roman treaty of those during our time"
I wish I had a proper translation of this book. I can't find the equivalent of this line on the Perseus
translation. It's frustrating to say the least.
Nate.
- pster
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 1089
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:05 am
- Location: Magna Graecia
Re: τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς
Line 7 here:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 99.01.0233
The English can be found here:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... hapter%3D1
...and therefore being unable to find in our day a more rapid or more signal change than that which has happened to Rome, I reserved my disquistion on its constitution for this place. . . .
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 99.01.0233
The English can be found here:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... hapter%3D1
...and therefore being unable to find in our day a more rapid or more signal change than that which has happened to Rome, I reserved my disquistion on its constitution for this place. . . .
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 789
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:14 am
- Contact:
Re: τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς
Thanks. This would explain καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς but not τῶν which is still partitive of μεταβολὴν.pster wrote:Line 7 here:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 99.01.0233
The English can be found here:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... hapter%3D1
...and therefore being unable to find in our day a more rapid or more signal change than that which has happened to Rome, I reserved my disquistion on its constitution for this place. . . .
Nate.
- pster
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 1089
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:05 am
- Location: Magna Graecia
Re: τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς
I have noticed that you are fond of partitives! But I don't really see a partitive here. The French translation reads: ...que celui qui est arrivé de notre temps aux Romains. So no partitive there. Can you explain what the part is and what the whole is?
Actually, you may not want to bother. I just looked at the Greek in my French text and the τῶν was struck and the τῆς moved to that position.
Actually, you may not want to bother. I just looked at the Greek in my French text and the τῶν was struck and the τῆς moved to that position.
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 789
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:14 am
- Contact:
Re: τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς
The change is the part and amongst those changes which occurred in their time they can't find any...pster wrote:I have noticed that you are fond of partitives! But I don't really see a partitive here. The French translation reads: ...que celui qui est arrivé de notre temps aux Romains. So no partitive there. Can you explain what the part is and what the whole is?
I don't understand the sense of the sentence with this emendation.pster wrote:Actually, you may not want to bother. I just looked at the Greek in my French text and the τῶν was struck and the τῆς moved to that position.
Nate.
- pster
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 1089
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:05 am
- Location: Magna Graecia
Re: τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς
I don't see how one could find more pronounced and greater upheaval at any rate than what happened to the Romans in our time.
You have two comparatives and then you have τῆς συμβάσης for your genitive of comparison. What more do you need? Neither Perseus nor the French has a partitive. I translated the gh as "at any rate". Perhaps there is something better.
You have two comparatives and then you have τῆς συμβάσης for your genitive of comparison. What more do you need? Neither Perseus nor the French has a partitive. I translated the gh as "at any rate". Perhaps there is something better.
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 789
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:14 am
- Contact:
Re: τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς
I need an explanation for the τῶν which I'm still not convinced forms a genitive of timepster wrote:I don't see how one could find more pronounced and greater upheaval at any rate than what happened to the Romans in our time.
You have two comparatives and then you have τῆς συμβάσης for your genitive of comparison. What more do you need? Neither Perseus nor the French has a partitive. I translated the gh as "at any rate". Perhaps there is something better.
with καθ' ἡμᾶς, as the latter already forms a temporal sense of "in our time/during our times".
You don't see here a partitive because of the translator's style, phrasing and word order.and therefore being unable to find in our day a more rapid or more signal change than that which has happened to Rome, I reserved my disquistion on its constitution for this place.
The Greek word order would suggest μεταβολὴν is taken with τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς to mean
"amongst those changes in our time, he can't find a more rapid or more signal change than that which has happened to Rome".
He's canvassing the extant historical documents of known events, and hey, he could only find
one amongst them which is suited for his upcoming treatise.
Maybe I'm being overly protective of the partitive genitive, but that's just how I understand
this line.
Nate.
- pster
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 1089
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:05 am
- Location: Magna Graecia
Re: τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς
I'm happy to strike τῶν.NateD26 wrote: I need an explanation for the τῶν which I'm still not convinced forms a genitive of time
with καθ' ἡμᾶς, as the latter already forms a temporal sense of "in our time/during our times".
- pster
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 1089
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:05 am
- Location: Magna Graecia
Re: τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς
So, can we strike τῶν?
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 789
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:14 am
- Contact:
Re: τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς
You can if you so choose, but I'm not fond of striking words to suit the desired meaning.pster wrote:So, can we strike τῶν?
Nate.
- pster
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 1089
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:05 am
- Location: Magna Graecia
Re: τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς
I'm not doing the striking on my own. I may be a bit brash when it comes to matters Greek, but I would never consider striking a word by myself! There comes a point where even I defer to the professionals! In fact, there are three different readings that are mentioned in the Weil French edition: ths kaθ'hmas; twn kaθ'hmas; ths kata Kannas. (I have no idea what "Kannas" means.) And I would assume that the difficulty of interpretation that we are having is part of the reason twn was struck by Weil.pster wrote:I just looked at the Greek in my French text and the τῶν was struck and the τῆς moved to that position.
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 2090
- Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:15 pm
Re: τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς
συμβάσης is the aor. act. feminine participle of sumbaino. "Treaty" is sumbasis.
what sharper or greater change, among [of] those [that happened] in our time [καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς], could anyone find than that which happened [συμβάσης] to the Romans
τῆς γε Ῥωμαίοις συμβάσης genitive of comparison with understood noun μεταβολὴς
The variant reading Kannas probably refers to the battle of Cannae, where the Romans were defeated by Hannibal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cannae but the context makes it clear that the Roman conquest of the Mediterranean world is referred to, not a Roman defeat.
what sharper or greater change, among [of] those [that happened] in our time [καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς], could anyone find than that which happened [συμβάσης] to the Romans
τῆς γε Ῥωμαίοις συμβάσης genitive of comparison with understood noun μεταβολὴς
The variant reading Kannas probably refers to the battle of Cannae, where the Romans were defeated by Hannibal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cannae but the context makes it clear that the Roman conquest of the Mediterranean world is referred to, not a Roman defeat.
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 2090
- Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:15 pm
Re: τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς
Take a look at Smyth sec. 1096. καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς is an adverbial expression used with the article. This is not uncommon in Greek. "of those turn-arounds in our time"
- pster
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 1089
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:05 am
- Location: Magna Graecia
Re: τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς
It is not uncommon in Polybius. Indeed, there are several on every page. In the Weil reading that I like, it is adverbial:Qimmik wrote:Take a look at Smyth sec. 1096. καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς is an adverbial expression used with the article. This is not uncommon in Greek. "of those turn-arounds in our time"
...ὁρῶν ποίαν ἄν τις ὀξυτέραν ἢ μείζονα λάβοι μεταβολὴν τῆς καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς γε Ῥωμαίοις συμβάσης...
Note carefully the word order. I apologize for any confusion. Indeed, if I had been using the Weil for reading rather than Perseus, I never would have put up this post.
- pster
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 1089
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:05 am
- Location: Magna Graecia
Re: τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς
Actually, the moment in time where everything is suspended, as he detours first through the events of Greek history in Books IV and V, and then detours through the Roman consitution in Book VI, is the moment just after the Battle of Cannae.Qimmik wrote: The variant reading Kannas probably refers to the battle of Cannae, where the Romans were defeated by Hannibal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cannae but the context makes it clear that the Roman conquest of the Mediterranean world is referred to, not a Roman defeat.