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loci antiqui #7

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loci antiqui #7

Postby klewlis » Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:00 am

I'm working through "cicero on war" (l.a. #7) and the last sentence of the first paragraph is confusing me:

Quare potest intellegi nullum bellum esse iustum nisi quod aut rebus repetitis geratur aut ante denuntiatum sit.

I have:
Wherefore I have realized that no war can be just unless either (it is born by the thing being returned to) or it is declared officially beforehand.

It's the part in parentheses that I can't seem to make out...
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Postby benissimus » Mon Mar 29, 2004 4:58 am

The meaning of the sentence should become much clearer when it is revealed that intellegi is a passive infinitive and not a first person perfect (intellego, intellegere, intellexi, intellectum).

"Wherefore no war can be understood to be just unless..."

nisi quod aut rebus repetitis geratur aut ante denuntiatum sit.
The part rebus repetitis is throwing me off a bit. Res is such a tricky word and I am not sure what is meant by repetitis, so I will venture... "unless it were waged either by constant reasoning or before it were officially declared so."
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
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Postby klewlis » Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:25 pm

hmmm....

ok. thanks. :)
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Postby phil » Tue Mar 30, 2004 7:43 pm

My dictionary has the following entry for repeto:
repeto, -ere, -ivi, itum, to go back to, ..., res ~ demand satisfaction, reclaim one's property.
ergo:
Wherefore it can be understood that no war is just unless either it is waged to regain one's property, or was threatened beforehand.
Notsure about the 'threatened beforehand ' bit though.
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Postby klewlis » Tue Mar 30, 2004 8:55 pm

phil wrote:My dictionary has the following entry for repeto:
repeto, -ere, -ivi, itum, to go back to, ..., res ~ demand satisfaction, reclaim one's property.
ergo:
Wherefore it can be understood that no war is just unless either it is waged to regain one's property, or was threatened beforehand.
Notsure about the 'threatened beforehand ' bit though.


that makes *more* sense... but in that case what do we do with the "geratur"?

edit: nevermind, I see what you're doing there.... but then isn't repetitis in a strange form for that? I guess if it is a perfect passive participle, it could literally be "for the regaining of...". Hm.... yes that could work. :)
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Postby Ulpianus » Tue Mar 30, 2004 9:22 pm

I would translate:

So a war cannot be considered just unless it is conducted after satisfaction has been demanded or it is preceded by an official declaration.

bellum gerere is idiomatic: to wage/conduct a war. I take "rebus repetitis" as ablative absolute: satisfaction having been demanded. The essence of the point is: You cannot launch a war without a warning: you must either give the enemy the opportunity to make amends voluntarily, or you must warn of the war in advance.

Does that work?
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Postby klewlis » Tue Mar 30, 2004 10:08 pm

Ulpianus wrote:I would translate:

So a war cannot be considered just unless it is conducted after satisfaction has been demanded or it is preceded by an official declaration.

bellum gerere is idiomatic: to wage/conduct a war. I take "rebus repetitis" as ablative absolute: satisfaction having been demanded. The essence of the point is: You cannot launch a war without a warning: you must either give the enemy the opportunity to make amends voluntarily, or you must warn of the war in advance.

Does that work?


isn't that an odd use of rebus then?

anyway, it works for me. :)
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Postby Ulpianus » Tue Mar 30, 2004 10:15 pm

Not such an odd meaning: "res repetere" is also idiomatic: to demand satisfaction/restoration of wrongly acquired property from a foreign power: OLD 9 (noting: a formal ultimatum). Perhaps "satisfaction" is too loose "restitution having been formally demanded" or something of that sort might be better.
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