Textkit Logo

τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς

Here's where you can discuss all things Ancient Greek. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get translation help and more!

τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς

Postby pster » Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:36 pm

...ὁρῶν ποίαν ἄν τις ὀξυτέραν ἢ μείζονα λάβοι μεταβολὴν τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς τῆς γε Ῥωμαίοις συμβάσης...

Am I correct in reading the bolded phrase as the adverbial "during these times of ours"? If so, then what I find a little weird is the use of both a genitive τῶν and an accusative ἡμᾶς together in a time expression. Or have I somehow misread the whole comparison?

Thoughts?

Thanks in advance.
User avatar
pster
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1069
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:05 am

Re: τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς

Postby NateD26 » Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:51 pm

pster wrote:...ὁρῶν ποίαν ἄν τις ὀξυτέραν ἢ μείζονα λάβοι μεταβολὴν τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς τῆς γε Ῥωμαίοις συμβάσης...

Am I correct in reading the bolded phrase as the adverbial "during these times of ours"? If so, then what I find a little weird is the use of both a genitive τῶν and an accusative ἡμᾶς together in a time expression. Or have I somehow misread the whole comparison?

Thoughts?

Thanks in advance.

I'm throwing a wild guess here. Could it function as genitive partitive to the genitive of comparison
τῆς γε Ῥωμαίοις συμβάσης? "...than at least the Roman treaty of those during our time"

I wish I had a proper translation of this book. I can't find the equivalent of this line on the Perseus
translation. It's frustrating to say the least.
Nate.
NateD26
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 787
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:14 am

Re: τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς

Postby pster » Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:09 pm

Line 7 here:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 99.01.0233

The English can be found here:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... hapter%3D1

...and therefore being unable to find in our day a more rapid or more signal change than that which has happened to Rome, I reserved my disquistion on its constitution for this place. . . .
User avatar
pster
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1069
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:05 am

Re: τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς

Postby NateD26 » Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:26 pm

pster wrote:Line 7 here:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 99.01.0233

The English can be found here:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... hapter%3D1

...and therefore being unable to find in our day a more rapid or more signal change than that which has happened to Rome, I reserved my disquistion on its constitution for this place. . . .

Thanks. This would explain καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς but not τῶν which is still partitive of μεταβολὴν.
Nate.
NateD26
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 787
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:14 am

Re: τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς

Postby pster » Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:09 pm

I have noticed that you are fond of partitives! But I don't really see a partitive here. The French translation reads: ...que celui qui est arrivé de notre temps aux Romains. So no partitive there. Can you explain what the part is and what the whole is?

Actually, you may not want to bother. I just looked at the Greek in my French text and the τῶν was struck and the τῆς moved to that position.
User avatar
pster
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1069
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:05 am

Re: τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς

Postby NateD26 » Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:23 pm

pster wrote:I have noticed that you are fond of partitives! But I don't really see a partitive here. The French translation reads: ...que celui qui est arrivé de notre temps aux Romains. So no partitive there. Can you explain what the part is and what the whole is?

The change is the part and amongst those changes which occurred in their time they can't find any...

pster wrote:Actually, you may not want to bother. I just looked at the Greek in my French text and the τῶν was struck and the τῆς moved to that position.

I don't understand the sense of the sentence with this emendation.
Nate.
NateD26
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 787
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:14 am

Re: τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς

Postby pster » Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:59 pm

I don't see how one could find more pronounced and greater upheaval at any rate than what happened to the Romans in our time.

You have two comparatives and then you have τῆς συμβάσης for your genitive of comparison. What more do you need? :D Neither Perseus nor the French has a partitive. I translated the gh as "at any rate". Perhaps there is something better.
User avatar
pster
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1069
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:05 am

Re: τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς

Postby NateD26 » Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:25 am

pster wrote:I don't see how one could find more pronounced and greater upheaval at any rate than what happened to the Romans in our time.

You have two comparatives and then you have τῆς συμβάσης for your genitive of comparison. What more do you need? :D Neither Perseus nor the French has a partitive. I translated the gh as "at any rate". Perhaps there is something better.

I need an explanation for the τῶν which I'm still not convinced forms a genitive of time
with καθ' ἡμᾶς, as the latter already forms a temporal sense of "in our time/during our times".

and therefore being unable to find in our day a more rapid or more signal change than that which has happened to Rome, I reserved my disquistion on its constitution for this place.

You don't see here a partitive because of the translator's style, phrasing and word order.

The Greek word order would suggest μεταβολὴν is taken with τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς to mean
"amongst those changes in our time, he can't find a more rapid or more signal change than that which has happened to Rome".

He's canvassing the extant historical documents of known events, and hey, he could only find
one amongst them which is suited for his upcoming treatise.

Maybe I'm being overly protective of the partitive genitive, but that's just how I understand
this line.
Nate.
NateD26
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 787
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:14 am

Re: τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς

Postby pster » Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:40 am

NateD26 wrote:I need an explanation for the τῶν which I'm still not convinced forms a genitive of time
with καθ' ἡμᾶς, as the latter already forms a temporal sense of "in our time/during our times".



I'm happy to strike τῶν.
User avatar
pster
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1069
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:05 am

Re: τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς

Postby pster » Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:05 am

So, can we strike τῶν?
User avatar
pster
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1069
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:05 am

Re: τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς

Postby NateD26 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:50 pm

pster wrote:So, can we strike τῶν?

You can if you so choose, but I'm not fond of striking words to suit the desired meaning.
Nate.
NateD26
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 787
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:14 am

Re: τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς

Postby pster » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:03 am

pster wrote:I just looked at the Greek in my French text and the τῶν was struck and the τῆς moved to that position.


I'm not doing the striking on my own. I may be a bit brash when it comes to matters Greek, but I would never consider striking a word by myself! There comes a point where even I defer to the professionals! In fact, there are three different readings that are mentioned in the Weil French edition: ths kaθ'hmas; twn kaθ'hmas; ths kata Kannas. (I have no idea what "Kannas" means.) And I would assume that the difficulty of interpretation that we are having is part of the reason twn was struck by Weil.
User avatar
pster
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1069
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:05 am

Re: τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς

Postby Qimmik » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:05 am

συμβάσης is the aor. act. feminine participle of sumbaino. "Treaty" is sumbasis.

what sharper or greater change, among [of] those [that happened] in our time [καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς], could anyone find than that which happened [συμβάσης] to the Romans

τῆς γε Ῥωμαίοις συμβάσης genitive of comparison with understood noun μεταβολὴς

The variant reading Kannas probably refers to the battle of Cannae, where the Romans were defeated by Hannibal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cannae but the context makes it clear that the Roman conquest of the Mediterranean world is referred to, not a Roman defeat.
Qimmik
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1258
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:15 pm

Re: τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς

Postby Qimmik » Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:42 pm

Take a look at Smyth sec. 1096. καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς is an adverbial expression used with the article. This is not uncommon in Greek. "of those turn-arounds in our time"
Qimmik
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1258
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:15 pm

Re: τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς

Postby pster » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:04 am

Qimmik wrote:Take a look at Smyth sec. 1096. καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς is an adverbial expression used with the article. This is not uncommon in Greek. "of those turn-arounds in our time"


It is not uncommon in Polybius. Indeed, there are several on every page. In the Weil reading that I like, it is adverbial:

...ὁρῶν ποίαν ἄν τις ὀξυτέραν ἢ μείζονα λάβοι μεταβολὴν τῆς καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς γε Ῥωμαίοις συμβάσης...

Note carefully the word order. I apologize for any confusion. Indeed, if I had been using the Weil for reading rather than Perseus, I never would have put up this post.
User avatar
pster
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1069
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:05 am

Re: τῶν καθ᾽ ἡμᾶς

Postby pster » Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:09 pm

Qimmik wrote:The variant reading Kannas probably refers to the battle of Cannae, where the Romans were defeated by Hannibal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cannae but the context makes it clear that the Roman conquest of the Mediterranean world is referred to, not a Roman defeat.


Actually, the moment in time where everything is suspended, as he detours first through the events of Greek history in Books IV and V, and then detours through the Roman consitution in Book VI, is the moment just after the Battle of Cannae.
User avatar
pster
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1069
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:05 am


Return to Learning Greek

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 29 guests