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6.2.6

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6.2.6

Postby pster » Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:13 pm

...μόνον νομίζοντες εἶναι ταύτην ἀνδρὸς τελείου βάσανον τὸ τὰς ὁλοσχερεῖς μεταβολὰς τῆς τύχης μεγαλοψύχως δύνασθαι καὶ γενναίως ὑποφέρειν...

Are the bolded verbs in parallel? I'm leaning towards saying no. But then that makes for some wild word order, at least by my provincial standards.
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Re: 6.2.6

Postby John W. » Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:21 am

pster wrote:...μόνον νομίζοντες εἶναι ταύτην ἀνδρὸς τελείου βάσανον τὸ τὰς ὁλοσχερεῖς μεταβολὰς τῆς τύχης μεγαλοψύχως δύνασθαι καὶ γενναίως ὑποφέρειν...

Are the bolded verbs in parallel? I'm leaning towards saying no. But then that makes for some wild word order, at least by my provincial standards.


pster - I'd say that the verbs aren't parallel, and that it's δύνασθαι ὑποφέρειν, 'to be able to bear'. You're right about the word order, but one sometimes finds the same sort of thing in Thucydides.

Best wishes,

John
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Re: 6.2.6

Postby NateD26 » Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:49 pm

Are the Greek and English translations aligned in the numbering of chapters and sections?
It's quite difficult finding in the translations the section in question. At least for me. :x
Last edited by NateD26 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 6.2.6

Postby pster » Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:27 pm

NateD26 wrote:Are the Greek and English translations aligned in the numbering of chapters and sections?
It's quite difficult finding in the translations of the section in question. At least for me. :x


The 6.1 translation does not exist on Perseus. The 6.2 translation is in 6.1. From 6.3 onwards, they correlate. Different scholars make different choices about which fragments to include. The Perseus translation is quite casual and rarely sheds much light on difficult passages. I have a far superior French translation but that obviously does you little good. The French translation does not treat them as parallel: "sache supporter", ie "knows how to bear".
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Re: 6.2.6

Postby John W. » Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:53 pm

Actually I'm now wondering if I was a bit premature, as I see LSJ gives a sense for δύνασθαι of 'bear', so that perhaps it's being used as an alternative to ὑποφέρειν - 'to endure ... and to bear ...', perhaps.

Apologies if I've created confusion :oops: .

Best wishes,

John
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Re: 6.2.6

Postby pster » Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:09 pm

John W. wrote:Actually I'm now wondering if I was a bit premature, as I see LSJ gives a sense for δύνασθαι of 'bear', so that perhaps it's being used as an alternative to ὑποφέρειν - 'to endure ... and to bear ...', perhaps.

Apologies if I've created confusion :oops: .

Best wishes,

John


That sense what is exactly what gave me pause.
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Re: 6.2.6

Postby John W. » Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:04 am

pster wrote:That sense what is exactly what gave me pause.


And it's the interpretation to which I'm, on balance, now inclining.

Sorry I can't be of more help; whereas I have a collection of Thucydidean editions and commentaries on which I can draw, I've nothing for Polybius. Perhaps more importantly, not having read any Polybius (beyond your extracts), I don't have a feel for his style or idiomatic range. Both these factors, I'm afraid, severely limit my ability to assist. I can't remember whether you have access to Walbank's commentary, and I don't know whether he comments on this point.

Best wishes,

John
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Re: 6.2.6

Postby Qimmik » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:09 pm

. . . thinking that the test of a perfect gentleman is to be able to bear the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune magnanimously and nobly . . .
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Re: 6.2.6

Postby Qimmik » Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:27 pm

In other words, they're not parallel. ὑποφέρειν is subordinate to δύνασθαι.
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Re: 6.2.6

Postby Qimmik » Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:58 pm

The slight separation of μεγαλοψύχως and καὶ γενναίως (hyperbaton) isn't particularly astonishing in Greek. Greek word order is more flexible than English word order because Greek is more highly inflected (and Latin is even more flexible). This book has a good discussion of Greek word order: http://www.amazon.com/Greek-Briston-Classical-Advanced-Language/dp/1853995266

The same goes for the "fronting" of ἐμοὶ in your post titled "Dative of possession." This is a little more radical, but by no means unparalleled (see Denniston, p. 49 for postponed ὅτι).

Also, you'll notice that the examples cited in LSJ for δύνασθαι meaning "bear" take an infinitive complement, not a direct object, so τὰς ὁλοσχερεῖς μεταβολὰς τῆς τύχης δύνασθαι -- as you would have to analyze the sentence if δύνασθαι and ὑποφέρειν were parallel -- wouldn't be consistent with those examples.
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Re: 6.2.6

Postby pster » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:11 am

Thanks. I guess John and I both missed the c. inf. requirement because we were only looking at the subsection. So yes, it seems they aren't in parallel.

That Denniston looks very good. And cheap! I'll have to pick up a copy!
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