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Κλυταιμήστρα A.Ag 958-974

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Κλυταιμήστρα A.Ag 958-974

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:56 pm

A.Ag 963-965
πολλῶν πατησμὸν δ’ εἱμάτων ἂν ηὐξάμην,

δόμοισι προυνεχθέντος ἐν χρηστηρίοις,

ψυχῆς κόμιστρα τῆσδε μηχανωμένῃ.


Seems like δόμοισι is in the wrong place. C. Collard translates it as if δόμοισι is the location for receiving the oracle in accord with the word order. My first inclination was to read δόμοισι with the following line as the place where Agamemnon would return (remove the comma after χρηστηρίοις). Don’t know if that is a possible reading.

D-P note that the reference to Agamemnon by means of ψυχῆς ... τῆσδε is striking.

Had a real fun time trying to figure out προυνεχθέντος. I don’t always use a computer, spend more than half the time with old technology, books and paper. Eventually I looked at the notes in D-P and the dictionary form προφέρω was there but the aor. 1 προήνεγκα: aor. 2
προήνεγκον don’t appear as head words Middle LS. The string -νεχθέντ- appears 1541 places in TLG_E so it is something that should be familiar, sigh! Should keep in mind TLG_E is something over 90 million words. [edit] Limited the search to texts before 2nd Cent. AD, that cut the number to 243. Then limited it to Attic Trag. and there one (1) hit A.AG. 964. So not so common in the Attic Trag. genre.

D-P says the gen-abs προυνεχθέντος in the singular is unusual. This short speech by Κλυταιμήστρα seems kind of difficult. Not done with it yet.
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Re: Κλυταιμήστρα A.Ag 958-974

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:48 am

Denniston & Page take note the repetition of οἶκος and δόμος in the Κλυταιμήστρα speech A.Ag. 958-974 but offer no suggestions about what significance this repetition might have for a reading of the text. D-P notes another δόμος cluster in Homer Od. 6.296-303. Lexical repetition has been described as contributing to “texture”, a term and concept borrowed and adapted by many from Halliday & Hasan[1]. I suspect there is something more going on here than “texture” but will just publish the samples for now.

Κλυταιμήστρα
ἔστιν θάλασσα, τίς δέ νιν κατασβέσει;
τρέφουσα πολλῆς πορφύρας ἰσάργυρον
960
κηκῖδα παγκαίνιστον, εἱμάτων βαφάς.
οἶκος δ’ ὑπάρχει τῶνδε σὺν θεοῖς ἅλις
ἔχειν· πένεσθαι δ’ οὐκ ἐπίσταται δόμος.
πολλῶν πατησμὸν δ’ εἱμάτων ἂν ηὐξάμην,
δόμοισι προυνεχθέντος ἐν χρηστηρίοις,
965
ψυχῆς κόμιστρα τῆσδε μηχανωμένῃ.
ῥίζης γὰρ οὔσης φυλλὰς ἵκετ’ ἐς δόμους,
σκιὰν ὑπερτείνασα σειρίου κυνός.
καὶ σοῦ μολόντος δωματῖτιν ἑστίαν,
θάλπος μὲν ἐν χειμῶνι σημαίνεις μολόν·
970
ὅταν δὲ τεύχῃ Ζεὺς ἀπ’ ὄμφακος πικρᾶς
οἶνον, τότ’ ἤδη ψῦχος ἐν δόμοις πέλει,
ἀνδρὸς τελείου δῶμ’ ἐπιστρωφωμένου.
Ζεῦ, Ζεῦ τέλειε, τὰς ἐμὰς εὐχὰς τέλει·
μέλοι δέ τοι σοὶ τῶν περ ἂν μέλλῃς τελεῖν.

Homer Od. 6.295
ἔνθα καθεζόμενος μεῖναι χρόνον, εἰς ὅ κεν ἡμεῖς
ἄστυδε ἔλθωμεν καὶ ἱκώμεθα δώματα πατρός.
αὐτὰρ ἐπὴν ἥμεας ἔλπῃ ποτὶ δώματ' ἀφῖχθαι,
καὶ τότε Φαιήκων ἴμεν ἐς πόλιν ἠδ' ἐρέεσθαι
δώματα πατρὸς ἐμοῦ μεγαλήτορος Ἀλκινόοιο.
6.300
ῥεῖα δ' ἀρίγνωτ' ἐστί, καὶ ἂν πάϊς ἡγήσαιτο
νήπιος· οὐ μὲν γάρ τι ἐοικότα τοῖσι τέτυκται
6.302
δώματα Φαιήκων, οἷος δόμος Ἀλκινόοιο
ἥρως. ἀλλ' ὁπότ' ἄν σε δόμοι κεκύθωσι καὶ αὐλή,


[1] Halliday, M.A.K; and Ruqayia Hasan (1976): Cohesion in English.
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Re: Κλυταιμήστρα A.Ag 958-974

Postby Paul Derouda » Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:48 pm

C. S. Bartholomew wrote:Denniston & Page take note the repetition of οἶκος and δόμος in the Κλυταιμήστρα speech A.Ag. 958-974 but offer no suggestions about what significance this repetition might have for a reading of the text. D-P notes another δόμος cluster in Homer Od. 6.296-303. Lexical repetition has been described as contributing to “texture”, a term and concept borrowed and adapted by many from Halliday & Hasan[1]. I suspect there is something more going on here than “texture” but will just publish the samples for now.

D-P notes the 'indifference' to repetition. I think in the Odyssey this indifference is likely to be real, because of the oral-formulaic character of the poem. This isn't the only place with a striking amount of repetition to no obvious stylistic purpose in Homer. If you try to translate Homer, it really starts to bother you.

Aeschylus isn't an oral poet, however, so I agree that there's probably something going on here... Maybe the poet is trying to weave some kind of "home sweet home" texture for Agamemnon, to underline the irony of him coming back after all those years only to be murdered on arrival.
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Re: Κλυταιμήστρα A.Ag 958-974

Postby Paul Derouda » Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:00 pm

Just a thought, not to be taken too seriously... The section above in the Odyssey takes place in Phaeacia; Odysseus has just shipwrecked the day before and now he has been found, naked on the beach, by Nausicaa and her maids. Nausicaa is speaking here, telling Odysseus how he'll find her father's place. The situation is a bit threatening here - how will the Phaeacians receive him? Now δώματα in the plural means 'palace', a grand place, in Homer. Maybe the function of the repetition here is to emphasize the contrast between the splendour of the Phaeacians and precarious situation of Odysseus, found alone and naked on the beach.
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Re: Κλυταιμήστρα A.Ag 958-974

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:01 am

C. S. Bartholomew wrote:Denniston & Page take note the repetition of οἶκος and δόμος in the Κλυταιμήστρα speech A.Ag. 958-974 but offer no suggestions about what significance this repetition might have for a reading of the text. D-P notes another δόμος cluster in Homer Od. 6.296-303. Lexical repetition has been described as contributing to “texture”, a term and concept borrowed and adapted by many from Halliday & Hasan[1]. I suspect there is something more going on here than “texture” but will just publish the samples for now.

Κλυταιμήστρα
ἔστιν θάλασσα, τίς δέ νιν κατασβέσει;
τρέφουσα πολλῆς πορφύρας ἰσάργυρον
960
κηκῖδα παγκαίνιστον, εἱμάτων βαφάς.
οἶκος δ’ ὑπάρχει τῶνδε σὺν θεοῖς ἅλις
ἔχειν· πένεσθαι δ’ οὐκ ἐπίσταται δόμος.
πολλῶν πατησμὸν δ’ εἱμάτων ἂν ηὐξάμην,
δόμοισι προυνεχθέντος ἐν χρηστηρίοις,
965
ψυχῆς κόμιστρα τῆσδε μηχανωμένῃ.
ῥίζης γὰρ οὔσης φυλλὰς ἵκετ’ ἐς δόμους,
σκιὰν ὑπερτείνασα σειρίου κυνός.
καὶ σοῦ μολόντος δωματῖτιν ἑστίαν,
θάλπος μὲν ἐν χειμῶνι σημαίνεις μολόν·
970
ὅταν δὲ τεύχῃ Ζεὺς ἀπ’ ὄμφακος πικρᾶς
οἶνον, τότ’ ἤδη ψῦχος ἐν δόμοις πέλει,
ἀνδρὸς τελείου δῶμ’ ἐπιστρωφωμένου.
Ζεῦ, Ζεῦ τέλειε, τὰς ἐμὰς εὐχὰς τέλει·
μέλοι δέ τοι σοὶ τῶν περ ἂν μέλλῃς τελεῖν.

Homer Od. 6.295
ἔνθα καθεζόμενος μεῖναι χρόνον, εἰς ὅ κεν ἡμεῖς
ἄστυδε ἔλθωμεν καὶ ἱκώμεθα δώματα πατρός.
αὐτὰρ ἐπὴν ἥμεας ἔλπῃ ποτὶ δώματ' ἀφῖχθαι,
καὶ τότε Φαιήκων ἴμεν ἐς πόλιν ἠδ' ἐρέεσθαι
δώματα πατρὸς ἐμοῦ μεγαλήτορος Ἀλκινόοιο.
6.300
ῥεῖα δ' ἀρίγνωτ' ἐστί, καὶ ἂν πάϊς ἡγήσαιτο
νήπιος· οὐ μὲν γάρ τι ἐοικότα τοῖσι τέτυκται
6.302
δώματα Φαιήκων, οἷος δόμος Ἀλκινόοιο
ἥρως. ἀλλ' ὁπότ' ἄν σε δόμοι κεκύθωσι καὶ αὐλή,


[1] Halliday, M.A.K; and Ruqayia Hasan (1976): Cohesion in English.



In lecture #9[1] Elizabeth Vandiver talks about the centrality of the house in Agamemnon. The σκηνή was a physical building where the Watchman in the opening scene is viewed on the roof and his speech draws attention to the house. Much later in the speech of Κασσάνδρα she makes number of somewhat startling references to the house. So in the house we discover an important motif if that is the right word.

[1]Greek tragedy [sound recording] / Elizabeth Vandiver. c2001
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Re: Κλυταιμήστρα A.Ag 958-974

Postby Paul Derouda » Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:23 pm

C. S. Bartholomew wrote:In lecture #9[1] Elizabeth Vandiver talks about the centrality of the house in Agamemnon. The σκηνή was a physical building where the Watchman in the opening scene is viewed on the roof and his speech draws attention to the house. Much later in the speech of Κασσάνδρα she makes number of somewhat startling references to the house. So in the house we discover an important motif if that is the right word.

It's easy to forget that this is a play - I guess this is a good point that the δόμος must have an important physical presence on the scene (in the English sense of the word), not only by being there, but also in the way the actors a moving and gesticulating. The δόμος isn't central only in the abstract sense of the word here...
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