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Smyth 1170

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Smyth 1170

Postby pster » Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:48 pm

Smyth 1170:

A predicate expression may stand inside an attributive phrase: ὁ δεινὸς (pred.) λεγόμενος γεωργός he who is called a skilful agriculturist X. O. 19.14. This is common with participles of naming with the article.

What is the predicate expression in the example?
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Re: Smyth 1170

Postby pster » Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:10 pm

And what is the attributive phrase?
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Re: Smyth 1170

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:18 pm

pster wrote:Smyth 1170:

A predicate expression may stand inside an attributive phrase: ὁ δεινὸς (pred.) λεγόμενος γεωργός he who is called a skilful agriculturist X. O. 19.14. This is common with participles of naming with the article.

What is the predicate expression in the example?


... tempted to go with Randall Buth's framework; learning the language not the metalanguage(s).

The predicate expression could be something like γεωργός δεινὸς. I would guess the attributive phrase is the entire ὁ δεινὸς λεγόμενος γεωργός, but I haven't looked at the co-text. Smyth's metalanguage is ambiguous and since I don't use it myself, this is nothing more than an attempt at mind reading.

This is a subcategory of a general syntax phenomenon I would call nesting where a constituent is contained within the boundaries of another constituent. In reading Attic Tragedy this crops up frequently. Observing and learning a few generalizations at higher level of abstraction saves time and effort. You don't need to learn 20 subtypes of nesting, just be aware that nesting happens. I know that the traditional grammar framework is still taught everywhere so there will be situations where knowing the subtypes will be required simply to pass the exams. Never the less, I still think that a minimalist set of syntax rules (nothing to do with Chomsky) is preferable to the approach of found in 19th century philology (Smyth being one better representatives).
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Re: Smyth 1170

Postby pster » Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:24 pm

I would think that the attributive phrase would have to come out adjectival. So I would think that δεινὸς λεγόμενος would have to be the attributive phrase, since it is the biggest thing that comes out adjectival, and the attribuitive phrase is the container. What about the contents? Well, the only possibility seems to be δεινὸς. But is this a predicate expression? I think Smyth's putting the parenthetical directly after it means he intends it that way. And although superficially it seems to be in attributive position coming after the article and before γεωργός, I think Smyth means that it is a predicate expression because of its function vis a vis λεγόμενος. So, λεγόμενος and whatever it governs is in attributive position with respect to γεωργός, but δεινὸς is a predicate expression with respect to/governed by λεγόμενος. The only thing I don't like about this is it doesn't jive with Smyth's translation. But that is a well known occupational hazard.

I was curious what people thought because if we can get this straight, I have a harder one. :mrgreen:
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Re: Smyth 1170

Postby NateD26 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:14 pm

Interesting terminology. While it is in attributive position, it still functions as predicate.

ὁ δεινὸς (pred.) λεγόμενος γεωργός = ὁ γεωργός ὁ δεινὸς λεγόμενος = ...ὃ δεινὸς λέγεται

This is the complete sentence:
ἐπεὶ δέ με καθ᾽ ἓν ἕκαστον ἐπεχείρησας ἐρωτᾶν, ἀποκρίνομαί σοι,
ὡς σὺ φῄς, ἅπερ σὺ γιγνώσκεις ὁ δεινὸς λεγόμενος γεωργός.

But now that you have undertaken to question me in particular,
my answers, you tell me, agree exactly with the views of
a farmer so famous for his skill as yourself!
-- William Heinemann, 1979

This is why it pays to check the complete quote and not a fragmented portion a grammarian has
offered as an example to his/her posited findings.

ὁ δεινὸς λεγόμενος γεωργός appears to be in apposition to σὺ:
...I answer you -- as you say -- exactly what you, a farmer known for his skill, have come to know.
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Re: Smyth 1170

Postby pster » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:15 pm

Thanks Nate. So glad you are on the case! I almost follow you. I'm sure you are right. But why is it functioning as a predicate? Why isn't it functioning as an attribuitive?

And let me ask you point blank:

1) What is the predicate expression?

2) What is the attributive phrase?

Thanks in advance.
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Re: Smyth 1170

Postby NateD26 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:53 am

pster wrote:Thanks Nate. So glad you are on the case! I almost follow you. I'm sure you are right. But why is it functioning as a predicate? Why isn't it functioning as an attribuitive?

And let me ask you point blank:

1) What is the predicate expression?

2) What is the attributive phrase?

Thanks in advance.

Initially, I wanted to read λεγόμενος as the attribute to ὁ γεωργός and δεινός as the
predicate to ὁ λεγόμενος γεωργός.

But Smyth's "This is common with participles of naming with the article" would suggest
he read δεινός λεγόμενος as a single predicate expression standing in attributive position.

Pretty strange.

At a certain section, which number I keep forgetting, he made a distinction between similar
expressions based on their placement in the phrase.
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Re: Smyth 1170

Postby NateD26 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:44 pm

I wonder what the placement of a predicate expression inside an articular participle (i.e.
in attributive position) changes in the overall meaning of the sentence, and whether
a distinction can be drawn from it.

Consider δοκέω.

Plutarch, Timoleon 15.4 (15.7 on TLG database):
...οὐ φαύλως ἀπήντησεν ὁ Διονύσιος εἰπών ‘ἐν ᾧ σὺ κἀγὼ
καί πάντες οἱ μακάριοι δοκοῦντες εἶναι περὶ κώθωνα διατρίβομεν.’

...Dionysius not inaptly replied by saying: ‘When thou and I and all those whom men
call happy are busy at the bowl.’
-- Bernadotte Perrin, 1918

Plato, Apology 21b:
ἦλθον ἐπί τινα τῶν δοκούντων σοφῶν εἶναι...

I arrived at [the house of] one of those men deemed wise...
-- my humble translation

The verb carries a similar meaning as that of the passive of λέγω (x called y/known for being y/
reputed for y/etc.) but regularly takes an infinitive or predicate adjective with infinitive.

Does the change from attributive to predicate position dramatically alter anything whatsoever in
the overall meaning? Or are they completely interchangeable?
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Re: Smyth 1170

Postby pster » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:48 pm

I think those are both in attributive position. This is a case where Mastronarde may be clearer than Smyth, but I think Smyth gives you the three main kinds of attributive position somewhere as I recall.
-----------------------------------
Beyond that, I think that I understand it now.

The "predicate expression" is just δεινός. That's what Smyth's parenthetical is telling us. It is a predicate expression because it is governed by the participial verb form λεγόμενος. Verbs of naming are unusual in that they govern adjectives or substantives that apply to or are identical with the main noun (e.g., γεωργός). Most pariciples would just govern a direct or indirect object which would be something different from the main noun and so the question of predicate vs. attribute would never come up.

The "attributive phrase" is just "δεινὸς λεγόμενος".
--------------------------------------------
Thanks Nate for checking the complete quote. The irony is I have checked around 200 complete quotes this year. But this one fell through the cracks. :?
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