τε ... και

[daivid]

This is about a sentence from Taylor book 2 page 137
A brother having got trapped it the king's treasury tells his brother
to cut off is head lest, the first brother being recognised, the other
is also executed.

ο δε ουν ετερος ευ τε λεγειν αυτον ενομισε και πεισθεις ταυτα εποιησεν.

My (rather literal) translation is:
And the second both considered that he (ie his brother) spoke well and obeying these (things?)
did it.

The construction "both ... and" sounds very odd in English and diogenes suggests just
dropping it when translating but I am still curious as to what τε adds for the Greek
reader. It would also be nice to know when one should use such a construction when
composing in Greek.

[daivid]

ο δε ουν ετερος ευ τε λεγειν αυτον ενομισε και πεισθεις ταυτα εποιησεν.

On reflection, taking the context into account, it seems to me that a better translation would be:

And the second not merely considered that he (ie his brother) spoke well but being persuaded did these (things?).

Is "not merely ... but" a valid translation of τε ... και ?

[Paul Derouda]

τε ... και is not adversative, so "not merely ... but" is not good. "Both ... and" would be inapproriate here, "and" maybe a bit too weak but better than "both ... and" I think. How about this:

"As the second one considered he had spoken well, he obeyed and did it."

I can't pinpoint the exact meaning of τε at this time of the night, but this is how I would render this. Somehow τε serves to logically connect the two halves of the sentence, hence "as".

[daivid]

τε ... και is not adversative, so "not merely ... but" is not good. "Both ... and" would be inapproriate here, "and" maybe a bit too weak but better than "both ... and" I think. How about this:

"As the second one considered he had spoken well, he obeyed and did it."

I can't pinpoint the exact meaning of τε at this time of the night, but this is how I would render this. Somehow τε serves to logically connect the two halves of the sentence, hence "as".

"as" does indeed connect the two in a way that a simple and does not. Feel free to expand
at some later stage but already it makes sense why Taylor chose to use τε ... και here.

Thank you very much for the help

[Markos]

χαῖρε Δαυιδ!

Schoder and Horrigan, A Reading Course in Homeric Greek, Book II, p. 4 say

τε is frequently a difficult word to translate. Often it is to be felt rather than bluntly expressed, but its precise feeling in a given context can be assigned only on the basis of considerable experience in reading the Homeric text. As you read on in the text, therefore, do not simply by-pass τε, but try to build up a feeling for it.

I know that this is not a very scientific way to look at language. Schoder and Horrigan are really romantics (Jesuit romantics!) who assume that language is to be felt rather than analyzed and micro-parsed.

...but I am still curious as to what τε adds for the Greek
reader.

I like the sentence better with the τε. It feels better to me. "I really like thee, Dr. Fell. The reason why I cannot tell."

ἴθι πολλὰ χαίρων, ὦ φίλε Δαυιδ!

[Paul Derouda]

I'm 100 % with Markos. You have to build up a feeling for τε. It's often very difficult to define it and even more difficult to translate.

In my translation, "As the second one considered he had spoken well, he obeyed and did it", you must not think τε is translated "as"; rather, I read and analysed the whole sentence and then translated it as a whole. Because you need to take into account not only τε ... καί but also ὁ δέ (which probably marks a change of subject here "he, the second one") and οὖν, which is also difficult to translate here but is closely connected to τε here. Maybe you could say that οὖν and τε together give "as"...

[daivid]

I'm 100 % with Markos. You have to build up a feeling for τε. It's often very difficult to define it and even more difficult to translate.

In my translation, "As the second one considered he had spoken well, he obeyed and did it", you must not think τε is translated "as"; rather, I read and analysed the whole sentence and then translated it as a whole. Because you need to take into account not only τε ... καί but also ὁ δέ (which probably marks a change of subject here "he, the second one") and οὖν, which is also difficult to translate here but is closely connected to τε here. Maybe you could say that οὖν and τε together give "as"...

I take your (both of you) points about feeling. Indeed the reason that translating with "as"
made sense to me is that it was an opening for me to get to the feeling. When I posted
τε was for me just sitting there doing nothing. I know that to really get a feel for τε
I will need to read a lot of Greek but for that to work there needs to be a seed from which
that can grow.

This I now have. Thank you

[Scribo]

Yes, you need to basically find connective words which make sense in English. I find words like and, also, as, such etc can do the job, depending on the sentence (mainly the first three). Usage: /te/ is an older version of "and" in Greek etymologically related to Sanskrit ca and Latin que and often has similar usage patterns, unless linked with /kai/ in which sentences tend to be sort both....and/ and....also etc. The others are right, one needs to develop a feel for it. Just like men/de.