pster wrote:τῶν μὲν γὰρ Ἑλληνικῶν πολιτευμάτων ὅσα πολλάκις μὲν ηὔξηται, πολλάκις δὲ τῆς εἰς τἀναντία μεταβολῆς ὁλοσχερῶς πεῖραν εἴληφε, ῥᾳδίαν εἶναι συμβαίνει καὶ τὴν ὑπὲρ τῶν προγεγονότων ἐξήγησιν καὶ τὴν ὑπὲρ τοῦ μέλλοντος ἀπόφασιν
Of the Greek republics, which have again and again risen to greatness and fallen into insignificance, it is not difficult to speak, whether we recount their past history or venture an opinion on their future.
What kind of use of ὅσα is this? It seems to be functioning as a relative pronoun, but is there a Smyth number? Or am I missing some sort of fancy attraction, dropping of antecedent, etc.?
Thanks in advance.
NateD26 wrote:I know that ὅσα is strictly a quantitive relative pronoun and that its antecendent is often omitted.
Its meaning is generally "as many as.. = all those who..."
pster wrote:For the brave:
Take the ὅσα challenge!
Find the appropriate entry for the Polybius on the LSJ page!
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/mor ... i0&prior=o)/rh&d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0199:book=5:chapter=10&i=1#lexicon
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/mor ... ek#lexicon
pster wrote:So, I think Cameron is clearly right. Otherwise, I would have no idea what the referent was. If I were to give you an English translation, I wouldn't know whether to emphasize the numerical aspects or minimize them. But I would claim that for an ancient Greek, ὅσα always carried a numerical signifcance. In this case it is the number of words spoken, or the number of speeches given.
Since we are here, can you give me a gloss for τοῖς ἄλλοθέν ποθεν?
Is this a case where there we have to supply the substantive ourselves? In which case it would be "others"?
pster wrote:I'm still not grasping the ἄλλοθέν ποθεν. Morris says, for these two words, "from the various places where they happened to be". Is there an implied copula?
IreneY wrote:Hey there! You mean whether it's ὅσα πολιτεύματα or not?
pster wrote:And don't you think that the genitive of πολιτευμάτων is governed by the end of the sentence τὴν ὑπὲρ τῶν προγεγονότων ἐξήγησιν καὶ τὴν ὑπὲρ τοῦ μέλλοντος ἀπόφασιν?
pster wrote:Nate, as I just said, the μέν..δέ cases are the same cases. μέν..δέ just distinguish the rises and falls. Same republics. We don't have one the one hand rising republics and on the other hand falling republics. We have republics that rise and then the same republics fall.
pster wrote:I assume that it is just governed by ἐξήγησιν and ἀπόφασιν in parallel.
pster wrote:Nate seems to say it is a partitive genitive. I don't see any part/whole relationship to support this. The ones that rise and fall aren't a part of the Greek republics, they are the whole.
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