Where to find Doric declensions?

[pster]

Ἀτρείδης , ου, Ep. Ἀτρεΐδης , εω, Dor. Ἀτρείδας , α,
A. son of Atreus, Hom., etc.

Where can I find the full declension for the Doric endings of this word and others? Should I somehow be able to read them back off the Attic endings by retaining alpha instead of eta? If so, how would I do that? LSJ act as though I am supposed to know. How would I know?

[Damoetas]

Most reference works don't list full paradigms for the other dialects besides Attic (and sometimes Homeric); they tell you the Attic forms, and then list how the other ones are different. There are good articles about dialects on the Aoidoi site: http://aoidoi.org/articles/

[Paul Derouda]

Another thing I just noticed, concerning the "Doric" forms in choral parts of Aeschylus. At line 700 Agamemnon has κῆδος and line 702 μῆνις; according to LSJ, the Doric forms are κᾶδος and μᾶνις. This shows, I think, how superficial this Doric patina is in Attic tragedy.

[Scribo]

Or how embedded those word forms are from Homer already, probably.

I don't think Doric is that superficial in tragedy, probably more noticeable in the choral sections too. No idea. I'd have to check Swift's book or something, I am disinclined to re-read it though....gah!

Doric forms, I think most reference grammars will have something, probably not worth your time learning them. If you're really keen check C Buck's Greek Dialects, very easy to find.

[Paul Derouda]

May I ask what Swift's book you're referring to?

I don't think the "Doric" forms are really much trouble, mostly they are really just a few rather obvious mechanical changes in inflection. But instinctively I would have thought that "embedded" words like μῆνις and κῆδος are just the ones that are changed and more obscure ones not. But I'm just guessing, I'd like to read a treatment of the subject.

[Scribo]

Laura swift has a book on lyric in Tragedy, its called the "Hidden Chorus" or something, it might (I can't remember) talk about the Doric elements, its certainly not philologically heavy. In fact, I'm finding it hard to think of good treatments of this topic...might actually be worth doing it myself. :S But then to be fair I don't venture into drama that often.

Treatments of tragic language tend to be a bit...flimsy unfortunately, cf for example Willi's fantastic treatment of Greek comedic language from a wide area of approach, traditional historical, dialectological, sociological etc. Fascinating...

Also, with words like menis etc, if they have specific connotations they're less likely to be changed. Saying that, I don't know how fixed the Homeric overtones would have been that early...certainly the earliest rhapsodic variants have no trouble replacing it with words like kholos, so...yeah.

[pster]

As I said in the other thread:

http://www.aoidoi.org/articles/choral_doric.html

http://www.scribd.com/doc/39895410/Bakk ... k-Language (see p. 397)

According one of these sources the choral parts of tragedy have a "patina" of Doric that mostly consists of retaining long alpha in the first declension. Trickiest thing seems to be not taking the contracted gen. pl. for acc. sg.

[pster]

May I ask what Swift's book you're referring to?

I don't think the "Doric" forms are really much trouble, mostly they are really just a few rather obvious mechanical changes in inflection. But instinctively I would have thought that "embedded" words like μῆνις and κῆδος are just the ones that are changed and more obscure ones not. But I'm just guessing, I'd like to read a treatment of the subject.

alpha rather than eta, the biggest single difference.

[Paul Derouda]

Thanks.

Aeschylus has Homeric overtones all over, I'm pretty sure of that. I guess that's the reason these words aren't changed then, like you say. But I'm suspect that there must be Homeric words that are "Dorified" in tragedy, I'll let you know if I find one. And I still wonder what were rules according to which Athenians decided what form was Doric and what not.

[Paul Derouda]

Pster, you're of course, I posted before reading your response.

[pster]

No worries. I'm not even paying attention to what you guys are discussing. I just wanted to get the "patina" reference for Scribo.

[Scribo]

Pster thanks, I'm guessing the article on tragedy? I thought about checking that book actually, unfortunately I don't have access to much since I'm in Cambridge at the moment for a few days, I'll post the doric page(s) from Buck when I get back.

[syril10]

http://aoidoi.org/articles/ is a good website. it also contains a general introduction to greek meter. for newbies.