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More genitive whining

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More genitive whining

Postby pster » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:56 pm

Th. 62.3:

ἦν δὲ ἡ γνώμη τοῦ Ἀριστέως τὸ μὲν μεθ᾽ ἑαυτοῦ στρατόπεδον ἔχοντι ἐν τῷ ἰσθμῷ ἐπιτηρεῖν τοὺς Ἀθηναίους, ἢν ἐπίωσι,

Why isn't this ἡ τοῦ Ἀριστέως γνώμη? The possessive is supposed to be in attributive position.

Or, is this somehow in predicate position? So rather than read it as "Ariseus' plan was to _____", we have to read it as "The plan to _____ was Aristeus'". But that seems unlikely from the context, since it is obviously his plan. There aren't competing plans on the table. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 99.01.0199 So what is going on??

This kind of thing really bugs me because I never got it straight before. Now I get it straight and I find Thucydides does't even have it straight. And there ain't no participle or even adjective in sight. So what's his excuse this time??

:x
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Re: More genitive whining

Postby John W. » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:59 am

What is it with you and the genitives? :mrgreen:

Seriously, I'm a bit out of my depth with some aspects of this genitive positioning business, but I'll have a think - can any of our colleagues enlighten us?

With regard to I.62, I translate as: 'Aristeus' plan was to ...', so I'm in agreement with you on this.

Best wishes,

John
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Re: More genitive whining

Postby pster » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:16 pm

OK, I cleared something up just now. I apologize for wasting so much time on these genitive issues. The problem arose from relying too much on Mastronarde who doesn't adequately address the matter that Smyth takes up at 1161d, namely that when you have a genitive substantive limiting another substantive, it will "very common[ly]" take place outside the article noun group (=outside attributive position; see Smyth 1157-9 for the article noun group cases). This is what we see in all the schema Thucydideum examples. Unfortunately I didn't read Smyth earlier. But also unfortunately, Smyth himself muddies the waters when at 1161d he gives as his example for this "very common" kind of placement one of possession. This is a bad example because a genitive of possession (leaving pronouns aside) is only "occassionally"(Mastronarde p. 71) to be found outside the article noun group!

EDITED: because I didn't know what "pace" meant.
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Re: More genitive whining

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:00 am

pster wrote:OK, I cleared something up just now. I apologize for wasting so much time on these genitive issues. The problem arose from relying too much on Mastronarde ... Smyth himself muddies the waters ...


pster,

Grammars and commentaries are great with a few exceptions. But nothing takes the place of reading 1000s of lines and just observing what happens.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: More genitive whining

Postby pster » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:46 am

:|
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