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Ovid...

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Ovid...

Postby Σεβαστός » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:53 pm

Salvete, amici. So I've decided to read Ovid's Fasti to educate myself a bit on Roman religion, and I'm struggling with an elegiac. It reads est tamen et ratio, Caesar, quae moverit illum / erroremque suum quo tueatur, habet. It's referring to Romulus, and granting him pardon for being so warlike and so ignoring the stars, only dividing the calendar into ten months rather than twelve. I want it to mean something like this: "It is however also the reason he possesses (habet loosely referring to ratio?), Caesar, which moves him, and for which man (is quo just stressing his possession again?) let it pardon his (not sure why this is suum instead of illius - is it because habet stand aside as the true subject?) error. Thanks for anyone's help :).
Last edited by Σεβαστός on Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
hic Graeca doctrina ore tenus exercitus animum bonis artibus non induerat.
Σεβαστός
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Re: Ovid...

Postby adrianus » Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:33 pm

"est tamen et ratio, Caesar, quae moverit illum / erroremque suum quo tueatur, habet."

"There is nevertheless also a reason, Caesar, that influences him and is able to make his own discrepancy thereby defensible [wherefore it/he would/could defend]"
habeo = to have the knowledge, means, ability, be able, know how to do or say anything (L&S)
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Ovid...

Postby Σεβαστός » Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:41 pm

Benigne praebes, Adriane! I was not aware of this use of "habeo", so thank you so much for pointing this out. One query: "Suum" must be referring to Romulus, but "suus" and "se" also only refer to the subject of the clause, so must that not imply that habet is Romulus rather than the "ratio"? Therefore, technically, would it read something like: "There is nevertheless also a reason, Caesar, which influenced him, and (lit.) he had power over his error by which it might be pardoned"?
hic Graeca doctrina ore tenus exercitus animum bonis artibus non induerat.
Σεβαστός
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Re: Ovid...

Postby adrianus » Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:26 pm

Yes, I put "it/he" because the subject could be Romulus but not 100% must suum refer to the subject of the sentence. It can refer to the subject of the discourse. (A&G §300, note.)
Ad clausulae principalis subjectum normaliter pertinet, nonnunquam subjectum orationis.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Ovid...

Postby Σεβαστός » Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:49 pm

Brilliant, thanks :).
hic Graeca doctrina ore tenus exercitus animum bonis artibus non induerat.
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Re: Ovid...

Postby Σεβαστός » Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:33 pm

Also, is it common to form perfect passive indicatives as perfect participle + fuit instead of p.p. +est? I found this today: numero turba notata fuit? Thanks.
hic Graeca doctrina ore tenus exercitus animum bonis artibus non induerat.
Σεβαστός
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Re: Ovid...

Postby adrianus » Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:07 pm

I would say not. Maybe someone else knows better. I think: "The bunch that follows was one notated by number", i.e., adjectival or substantive, not verbal.
Non est, dicam. Forsit alius melius monebit. Meâ sententiâ, adjectivi vel substantivi in isto loco non verbi est participium.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Ovid...

Postby Σεβαστός » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:10 am

OK, great, thanks yet again Adrianus! :D
hic Graeca doctrina ore tenus exercitus animum bonis artibus non induerat.
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Re: Ovid...

Postby Σεβαστός » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:00 am

Adrianus, in re "se" and it sometimes referring to the subject of the discourse, just a little later on Ovid goes on to say: nec toto perstare die sua iura putaris where obviously the sua cannot possibly refer to the verb introducing the indirect statement, putaris, but must, as you said, refer to an implied day subject!
hic Graeca doctrina ore tenus exercitus animum bonis artibus non induerat.
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