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meaning and usage of primus

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meaning and usage of primus

Postby Junya » Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:36 pm

Hi.

genuit puerpera regem cui nomen aeternum,
et gaudium matris habens com virginitatis honore,
nec primam similem visa est habere nec sequentem



What does this primam similem mean ?


1.
Does it mean the most similar one ?
Or the similar one to appear first ?
But "she is thought to have neither the most similar one nor..." is not nice, because the same thing can be said without adding "the most"..
The similar one to appear first, looks ok.


2. (This may be the main question.)
Is this adjective primam equivalent to genitive/dative (which similem takes) of the substantive prima (= prima puerpera) ?
Is there such a usgae in adjective ?
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Re: meaning and usage of primus

Postby adrianus » Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:39 pm

"nor was seen the nearest one of her like to happen, nor a subsequent one"
"nor was seen to occur one close to her, nor will occur one."
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: meaning and usage of primus

Postby Junya » Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:56 pm

ok. Then what do you think about the question 2. ? Could you give me your opinion ?
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Re: meaning and usage of primus

Postby adrianus » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:42 pm

You could look at it that way, perhaps, though I wouldn't be inclined to. It's just an adjective, "closest similar".
Id forsitan dicatur at ego mentem sic non flectam. Adjectivum justum est.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: meaning and usage of primus

Postby Junya » Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:42 pm

I can ?
I'll check the grammar today to see if adjective can be used that way (as a substitute for dat. and gen., or for every case).
Thank you. :)
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Re: meaning and usage of primus

Postby adrianus » Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:18 pm

Only in that "prima similis" is rather like "proximae similis" but not "primae similis", since that is maybe "like unto the first", rather than "like unto the nearest", I imagine.
Sicut "proximae similis" at non "primae similis" est "prima similis", ut imaginor.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: meaning and usage of primus

Postby Junya » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:58 pm

Hi. :)
You mean you would understand prima similis as proximae similis (similar one to the nearest), and not as primae similis (similar one to the first) ?
But I think similar one to the first would rather fit the context, since puerpera Maria is the first virgin who gave birth to a child as a virgin.
Could you explain why you want to take it as the nearest.

genuit puerpera regem cui nomen aeternum,
et gaudium matris habens com virginitatis honore,
nec primam similem visa est habere nec sequentem
Junya
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Re: meaning and usage of primus

Postby adrianus » Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:32 pm

Because "prima similis" means, I believe, the "first/near[est] similar" ("the similar one which is near/close[est]") and not "similar to the first". You want "prima similis" to mean "similar to the first" but "prima" is an adjective. Of course, maybe I'm wrong.
Quod sic vertere, scilicet "similar to the first", te movearis etiamsi adjectivum "prim am". Forsit erro.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: meaning and usage of primus

Postby Junya » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:48 pm

Thank you.
Though it's still not at all clear which is right reading, and it may not be possible to decide which is right,
anyway I found a statement in Gildersleeve which explains about an extension of the usage of Objective Genitive.


Gildersleeve 363 explains the use of Genitive as subject or object.
subjective : Amor Dei (the love given by God, Deus amat nos)
objective : Amor Dei (the love toward God, amamus Deum)
and section 363 Note :
The use of the Genitive with substantives whose corresponding verbs take other cases than the Accusative, gradually increases in Latin, ..... , but it is not very common in the classical language.
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Re: meaning and usage of primus

Postby msfonsecajr » Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:10 pm

Salutes plurimas vobis!

Carmen laudat Mariam propter unicitam. Non enim fuit mulier ante illam tam amata a Deo, neque post eam.

De Vocabulo similis notemos hoc: Aliquid dicitur similis esse alicui aut alicujus. Si, autem, dicimus aliquid non similem habere, similitudinis negatur, neque oportet dicere quem similem, quod dativus aut genitivus facerent.

Curate ut valeatis!
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Re: meaning and usage of primus

Postby Junya » Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:56 pm

Hi msfonsecajr. :)

De Vocabulo similis notemos hoc: Aliquid dicitur similis esse alicui aut alicujus. Si, autem, dicimus aliquid non similem habere, similitudinis negatur, neque oportet dicere quem similem, quod dativus aut genitivus facerent.


I'm sorry, I'm unaccustomed to having conversation in Latin.
I'm unclear about your neque oportet dicere quem similem, quod dativus aut genitivus facerent.
Can I understand it as neque oportet dicere aliquem similis, quod dativus aut genitivus facerent ?
(And the translation is : nor you should say aliquem similis using accusative , which work dative or genitive would do, not accusative.)
Is this understanding ok ?

genuit puerpera regem cui nomen aeternum,
et gaudium matris habens com virginitatis honore,
nec primam similem visa est habere nec sequentem


Then, are you trying to say that one should not say primam similem, if he means primam as accusative of the substantive ?
But what I mean is,

1.
primam is here used as a simple adjective (not used as a substantive) attached to and modifying the substantive participle similem (translated as a similar person),


2.
an adjective might be used for genitive or dative of a substantive, for I know an adjective can be used for accusative of a substantive, like
vester conspectus (simply translated as your seeing, but it can be meant as a seeing you, in Latin sentence conspicio vos, video vos), in which the adjective vester (though it seems to be called possessive pronoun in grammar books) is used for accusative of the substantive vos.

In Gildersleeve 304, note 2 it is written that possessive pronouns like tuus, vester can be used for objective genitive like tui, vestri.
examples : vester conspectus (a seeing you, conspicio vos),
neglegentia tua (a neglecting you, neglegit te),
odium tuum (a hating you, odit te)

and in Glidersleeve 363 the use of objective genitive is explained, like
Amor Dei (the love toward God, amamus Deum).
And in the note to 363 it is said :
The use of the Genitive with substantives whose corresponding verbs take other cases than the Accusative, gradually increases in Latin, ..... , but it is not very common in the classical language.



3.
so, this simple adjective prima may be here used for the genitive/dative of the substantive adjective prima (which would refer to puerpera Maria).



Having written it, this is a little complex, I'm afraid you might not understand...
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