Textkit Logo

Eccite Hominem?

Here's where you can discuss all things Latin. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get translation help and more!

Moderator: thesaurus

Eccite Hominem?

Postby Jefferson Cicero » Fri Feb 27, 2004 3:41 pm

Here's a question that I, being such a neophyte, have been puzzling over since I finished Wheelock's Latin Grammar and then heard, once again, the famous Pontius Pilot quote, 'Ecce Homo!'

Pilot was addressing a croud, and 'homo' should be in the accusative, right? So why did he not say 'Eccite Hominem!'? That's assuming that my grammar here is correct, I haven't checked it to make sure.

Is 'Ecce Homo' a colloquial usage that existed in Pilot's time, or perhaps is it a colloquial usage of the Vulgar Latin of Jerome's era?

How stupid a question is this, or perhaps I should ask, how many other neophytes have wondered about this?

Jf Cc :?
User avatar
Jefferson Cicero
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 123
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:55 pm
Location: Declivifluminia, Meridiana

Postby Ulpianus » Fri Feb 27, 2004 3:47 pm

I think it's right. Ecce is an indeclinable interjection: "Look!", not a verb. So the sentence as a whole is "Look [here is] the person!" with "here is" understood. With esse whether understood or express, both subject and predicate go in the nominative, just as if you said "Jesus est homo" or whatever.
Ulpianus
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 197
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: London, UK

Thanks

Postby Jefferson Cicero » Sat Feb 28, 2004 2:54 pm

Thanks for clearing this up. If such interjections are covered in Wheelock, then I must have forgotten about them. It has been a while since I finished it, and I haven't had time for further study.

On the other hand, a quick scan of the contents of my 4th edition didn't turn them up, and Ecce is not in the glossary.

I really need further study of grammar and a lot of reading of literature. I thought this phrase might be a colloquialism because that's usually what messes up my comprehension when reading.

Jfn Ccr :o
User avatar
Jefferson Cicero
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 123
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:55 pm
Location: Declivifluminia, Meridiana

Postby benissimus » Sun Feb 29, 2004 1:35 am

Wheelock doesn't cover the interjections very much, other than vae, eheu, and O. I do recall the text using the phrase age me! age me, which it might surprise some to know is not from ago, agere but a Greek imperative forced into an interjectional expression.

"Pontius Pilot"... :lol: I always love a good malapropism; his name was "Pontius Pilate (Pilatus)".
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
User avatar
benissimus
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2733
Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 4:32 am
Location: Berkeley, California

concerning the malapropism

Postby Jefferson Cicero » Sun Feb 29, 2004 5:37 am

:oops: 'Pilot?' What was Eye thinking? A pair ently not much. I new that the proper spelling was 'Pilate'! I've red his name many times, and spelt it wright everytime before!

The malapropism was inside my mined. What makes won make such silly mistakes when won should no butter?

Jeff (Cic)
User avatar
Jefferson Cicero
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 123
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:55 pm
Location: Declivifluminia, Meridiana

Re: concerning the malapropism

Postby Evito » Wed Mar 03, 2004 11:11 am

Jefferson Cicero wrote::oops: 'Pilot?' What was Eye thinking? A pair ently not much. I new that the proper spelling was 'Pilate'! I've red his name many times, and spelt it wright everytime before!

The malapropism was inside my mined. What makes won make such silly mistakes when won should no butter?

Jeff (Cic)


Well after you writing "croud" nothing should really be of any surprise to me. ;)
phpbb
Evito
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 12:56 pm
Location: The Netherlands

aargh!

Postby Jefferson Cicero » Thu Mar 04, 2004 4:12 pm

:oops: Aargh! Caught again!

Believe it or not, I used to write for a newspaper!

My excuse? I work at nights and sleep during the day, and I often get very little sleep. You'd be surprised how stupid and unwatchful you can get that way.

Jeff Cicy

P.S. How do you spell 'aargh!' in Dutch?
User avatar
Jefferson Cicero
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 123
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:55 pm
Location: Declivifluminia, Meridiana

Re: aargh!

Postby ingrid70 » Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:38 pm

Jefferson Cicero wrote::oops: Aargh! Caught again!
P.S. How do you spell 'aargh!' in Dutch?


Aargh! But we spell 'oops' as 'oeps' :).

Ingrid
ingrid70
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 394
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 6:29 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Postby Evito » Fri Mar 05, 2004 8:55 am

Or say "Bij Hercules", which means "Mehercle!"
phpbb
Evito
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 12:56 pm
Location: The Netherlands

thanks

Postby Jefferson Cicero » Fri Mar 05, 2004 3:18 pm

Thanks for these comments. I studied Dutch for a while years ago because I am partly of Dutch descent. I didn't have much time for it after getting a new job, so I had to quit. Then, when I had time again, I started on Latin.

I intend to begin my study of Dutch again, some day.

Jefferson Cicero :)
User avatar
Jefferson Cicero
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 123
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:55 pm
Location: Declivifluminia, Meridiana

Postby MickeyV » Fri Mar 05, 2004 11:45 pm

I wouldn't bother. Try German instead. :D
MickeyV
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 67
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:29 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Reason why?

Postby Jefferson Cicero » Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:24 pm

MickeyV wrote:
I wouldn't bother. Try German instead.


:) You may as well talk to the moon. I intend to learn Scots Doric as well since it is ancestral.

Actually, German was the first language I ever studied on my own, but I never learnt to write it, just speak it well enough to survive on my own in Germany. Aside form the ancestral aspect, I was drawn to Dutch because it was a lot like German, yet so different.

I once read that if you know German, you may as well learn Dutch, because knowledge of one will give you a head start in learning the other. It's like the Romance languages. If you learn Spanish, why not also learn Italian? Knowledge of one will give you the other for half price or so, in terms of effort, etc. I have heard of people who learn languages in groups like this.
User avatar
Jefferson Cicero
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 123
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:55 pm
Location: Declivifluminia, Meridiana

Postby benissimus » Sun Mar 07, 2004 1:26 am

All right, here's my worst case of malapropism yet...

Until yesterday, I thought that word that you hear every so often "incorrigible" was "encouragable" :oops:
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
User avatar
benissimus
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2733
Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 4:32 am
Location: Berkeley, California

Re: multilinguists

Postby xn » Sun Mar 07, 2004 4:14 am

Jefferson Cicero: Some years ago I visited Tønsberg, Norway; Tuttlingen, Germany; Amsterdam; and Antwerpen on one trip, the former two for genealogical reasons and the latter two for a holiday from my vacation. :) I attempted to learn “survival” basics in each of (bokmål) Norwegian, German, and Dutch/Flemish. I found that while I could keep the written forms straight, I’d often pronounce the words of one language as if they were words from one of the other languages. The merchants of the Vlaeykensgang must have wondered about which planet I called home …

xn
User avatar
xn
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 8:35 am
Location: Montes Virides

Postby cadoro » Sun Mar 07, 2004 4:24 am

MickeyV wrote:I wouldn't bother. Try German instead. :D


I make a quick holiday to the Netherlands a year or so back and almost everyone I spoke to was fluent in English, not just a few words but better even than a native speaker sometimes.My own pathetic attempts to speak Dutch were met with a sympathetic/condescending look and a reply in perfect English.At that point I closed the Dutch phrase -book and determined not to try with Dutch ever again.It's your own fault for all being so good at English :lol: Do you all have secret underground English schools there?
cadoro
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 7:34 am
Location: London

mixed pronbounciation

Postby Jefferson Cicero » Sun Mar 07, 2004 6:08 am

xn: I can sympathise with what you say. Someone who has studied Latin, and knows the etymologies of Romance words, may not have such a problem with getting words or pronounciations from one Romance Language confused with another when trying to speak. I wouldn't count on it though, and there is no written ancestral Germanic language, holding a place in that family corresponding to Latin's position with the Romance, that could be studied for this purpose, even if it would help.

After I finished Wheelock, I bought an Italian book for beginners. I had to stop using it because, since I had so recently finished studying Latin, the Italian (since it has a simpler grammar by comparison) kept looking like butchered Latin. It seemed that Italian was missing grammatical elements that should be there but aren't. Italian started looking like Latin that had been accosted on the streets of Rome, mugged, robbed of grammar, raped, stomped, hacked to pieces, and left laying in a pile of bloody pieces on the sidewalk. I could almost see the severed body parts.

:? I guess that a close attention to detail is necessary to keep from mispronouncing words from one related language to the other, but that's not easy to obtain or maintain when speaking face to face with natives, and having to spit out sentences on the spot. Learning to read a language is not the same as learning to speak it. I marvel at those who may be able to keep it all straight.
User avatar
Jefferson Cicero
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 123
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:55 pm
Location: Declivifluminia, Meridiana


Return to Learning Latin

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], RGwebdesignlanka and 35 guests