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Questions about Hansen/Quinn exercises

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Questions about Hansen/Quinn exercises

Postby Lex » Sat Jul 12, 2003 9:40 pm

Hansen and Quinn don't provide an answer key, so....<br /><br />[face=SPIonic][size=18=18]te/xnh| kai\ to\n a)delfo\n paideu/ei o( Omhroj.[/face][/size]<br /><br />This appears to me to be something like "With skill, Homer teaches even his brother.", where the dative is used in the instrumental sense. Is this correct? Also, I'm not sure what the kai is emphasizing. <br /><br />[face=SPIonic][size=18=18]e)n th=| te/xnh| to\n a)delfo\n bibli/w| paideu/ei o( Omhroj.[/face][/size]<br /><br />"Homer teaches his brother in the art/skill with a book." Here, it seems the dative in bibli/w| is instrumental, and in te/xnh| is used to take the e)n to show place. Is is legitimate to translate the English phrase "in the art" using dative in this way?<br /><br />[face=SPIonic][size=18=18]o( Omhroj bibli/oij paideu/ei to\n a)delfo\n th\n te\xnhn.[/face][/size]<br /><br />On this one, I'm just plain confused. Why are both a)delfo/n and te/xnhn in accusative? Is this to convey the idea that his brother is traveling towards the skill, in a sense? Or what? <br /><br />Any help is appreciated.
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Re:Questions about Hansen/Quinn exercises

Postby Raya » Sun Jul 13, 2003 7:51 am

[1] In Greek, sentences (or clauses within a sentence) will often have 'kai' or 'alla' or 'de' near the beginning, to indicate a new thought. I'd translate it as 'And Homer teacher his brother with skill.'<br /><br />[2] In English, you can put the predicate first to draw emphasis to it. (Notice the previous sentence: I put 'In English' first, to draw attention to the fact that I'm discussing English, although I would still be grammatically correct with: 'You can put the predicate first...in English'.) So try: 'In the arts, Homer teaches his brother with a book.'<br /><br />[3] Both 'adelphon' and 'tekhnen' are direct objects of the subject - consider how in English you could say: 'Homer is teaching his brother the arts'. Think, the question: 'What is Homer teaching?' you could legitimately answer with: 'he is teaching arts' as much as: 'he is teaching his brother'. So, 'Homer is teaching his brother the arts with books.'<br /><br />I hope that helps! ;)<br /><br />(..and I hope someone more knowledgeable will correct me if I'm wrong...)
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Re:Questions about Hansen/Quinn exercises

Postby Lex » Sun Jul 13, 2003 5:29 pm

[quote author=Raya link=board=2;threadid=243;start=0#1298 date=1058082677]<br />[1] In Greek, sentences (or clauses within a sentence) will often have 'kai' or 'alla' or 'de' near the beginning, to indicate a new thought. I'd translate it as 'And Homer teacher his brother with skill.'<br />[/quote]<br /><br />According to both H/Q and B/H, kai is also used in the sense of even or also. How do I tell which usage is intended? If it was intended in the sense you suggest, why didn't it come first in the sentence?<br /><br />[quote author=Raya link=board=2;threadid=243;start=0#1298 date=1058082677]<br />[2] In English, you can put the predicate first to draw emphasis to it. (Notice the previous sentence: I put 'In English' first, to draw attention to the fact that I'm discussing English, although I would still be grammatically correct with: 'You can put the predicate first...in English'.) So try: 'In the arts, Homer teaches his brother with a book.'<br />[/quote]<br /><br />OK, fair enough. But you missed the point of my question. Dative w/ e)n is used to indicate static place, as opposed to movement toward (accusative) or away from (genitive), right? As used in the exercise sentence, the dative phrase doesn't really deal with place, except in a metaphorical sort of sense. If I directly translate the words into English, it happens to make sense in English. But I want to make sure that it makes sense in Greek! ;)<br /><br />[quote author=Raya link=board=2;threadid=243;start=0#1298 date=1058082677]<br />[3] Both 'adelphon' and 'tekhnen' are direct objects of the subject - consider how in English you could say: 'Homer is teaching his brother the arts'. Think, the question: 'What is Homer teaching?' you could legitimately answer with: 'he is teaching arts' as much as: 'he is teaching his brother'. So, 'Homer is teaching his brother the arts with books.'<br />[/quote]<br /><br />In English, the word "teach" is a bit slippery, and allows either what is being taught or who is being taught to be the direct object. But either way, it shouldn't be allowed to have two direct objects in one sentence, should it? For instance, "Homer is teaching his brother the arts" is either saying "Homer is teaching the arts to his brother", in which case "the arts" is the direct object, and "his brother" is the indirect object; or it is saying "Homer is teaching his brother in the arts", in which case "his brother" is the direct object, and "the arts" is the indirect object. Whichever way you choose to parse the sentence, it shouldn't have two direct objects, should it?<br /><br />And if you use the word "educate" instead of "teach", then this slipperiness isn't allowed; "Homer educates his brother" is fine, but "Homer educates the arts" just doesn't sound right. Is this slipperiness allowed with paideu/ei, or does it always take a person as its direct object?<br /><br />Thank you for the help.<br /><br />
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Re:Questions about Hansen/Quinn exercises

Postby annis » Sun Jul 13, 2003 8:44 pm

[quote author=Lex link=board=2;threadid=243;start=0#1321 date=1058117342]<br />According to both H/Q and B/H, kai is also used in the sense of even or also. How do I tell which usage is intended? If it was intended in the sense you suggest, why didn't it come first in the sentence?<br />[/quote]<br /><br />If it isn't at the beginning of a clause, then it almost certainly means "even." From time to time it's hard to tell, but in your first example, it is clearly "even".<br /><br />
<br />And if you use the word "educate" instead of "teach", then this slipperiness isn't allowed; "Homer educates his brother" is fine, but "Homer educates the arts" just doesn't sound right. Is this slipperiness allowed with paideu/ei, or does it always take a person as its direct object?<br />
<br /><br />Always take this sort of question to the Liddel and Scott dictionary. Fortunately, it can be reached online at Perseus.<br /><br />Also, keep in mind that some verbs do in fact take double accusatives. Things like "name, call, appoint, choose, show, make" [face=SPIonic]e(auto\n despo/thn pepoi/hken[/face] He has made himself master. See "double accusative" in most Greek grammars for more examples.<br /><br />In this case, [face=SPIonic]paideu/w[/face] is listed in L&S as c. dupl. acc. [face=SPIonic]p. tina/ ti[/face] teach someone something.
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Re:Questions about Hansen/Quinn exercises

Postby Lex » Mon Jul 14, 2003 6:57 pm

[quote author=William Annis link=board=2;threadid=243;start=0#1322 date=1058129078]<br /><snip><br />[/quote]<br /><br />Thanks for the help.
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Re:Questions about Hansen/Quinn exercises

Postby Paul » Wed Jul 16, 2003 3:51 am

Hi All,<br /><br />I've been researching the so-called 'double accusative' and the not quite ripe fruits of this labor are:<br /><br />a. uses of the accusative are often viewed from the perspectives of the 'object effected' (internal or cognate accusative) and 'object affected' (or external accusative)<br /><br />b. Monro's "Homeric Grammar" gives this example: "the wound which he wounded me". Both "wound' and "me" are in the accusative. Because "wound" "..repeats with more or less modification, the meaning given by the verb" it is called the internal accusative. But "me" is an object "..in which the action of the verb is limited or directed"; it is called the external accusative.<br /><br />c. the two accusatives of Lex's 3rd example (brother and art) seem, at bottom, to be instance of just such a combination of internal and external accusative. This becomes more evident if we recast the translation in the manner of Monro's example in (a) as: "Homer teaches his brother teaching with books.".<br />This 'translation' shows that "teaching" (like "wound" above) <br />more or less restates the meaning of the verb. In the Hansen/Quinn sentence, "te/xnhn" is just a more specific type<br />of "teaching". So "art" is the internal and "brother" the external accusative.<br /><br />d. this finds confirmation in Smyth's "Greek Grammar". See sections 1563, 1590, 1628, 1629.<br /><br />Cordially,<br /><br />Paul<br />
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