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GEN on DAT?

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GEN on DAT?

Postby mariek » Mon Jul 14, 2003 6:38 am

Now I'm thoroughly confused....<br /><br /><br />Sentence 1 : Bona filia agricolae cenam parat. (62I2)<br />I translated as : The good farmer's daughter prepares dinner.<br />But now I'm wondering, could it be : The good daughter prepares dinner for the farmer.<br />I'm not sure whether "agricolae" is the GEN of filia, or the DAT.<br />What is supposed to clue me in on this?<br /><br /><br />Sentence 2 : (His) daughter is getting (parat) a good dinner for the farmer. (62II5)<br />I tranlated as : Filia agricolae bonam cenam parat.<br />It was after doing this exercise that I went back to the one above and doubted whether I translated it correctly. When I re-read the English translation for Sentence 2, I read it as "the farmer's daughter" instead of "for the farmer".<br />
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Re:GEN on DAT?

Postby benissimus » Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:43 am

Your first sentence could certainly mean either thing. In "good" Latin, there isn't supposed to be such confusion. I really don't know if one is preferable to the other.<br /><br />Your second sentence is slightly more precise, in that it provided the (His). This tells you that the "his" is implied and that you won't be needing a genitive. Therefore, it would be Filia agricolae bonam cenam parat, as you put it, or to be a little bit clearer, Filia bonam cenam parat agricolae. Both of course being equally acceptable, though the latter is easier to translate.
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Re:GEN on DAT?

Postby bingley » Mon Jul 14, 2003 8:25 am

The good farmer's daughter prepares dinner.<br /><br />In English do you get confused over whether the farmer is good or the daughter? Context tells you which is meant, but an isolated sentence can be ambiguous. Same with Latin, just that the ambiguity is in a different place. That's why, as is often said in these threads, contextless sentences are tricky.
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Re:GEN on DAT?

Postby benissimus » Mon Jul 14, 2003 8:58 am

Ah, don't forget that agricola is masculine. Only bonus agricola could mean "good farmer".
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Re:GEN on DAT?

Postby mariek » Mon Jul 14, 2003 3:22 pm

<br />Sentence 1: Bona filia agricolae cenam parat. (62I2)<br /><br />Benissimus: Your first sentence could certainly mean either thing. In "good" Latin, there isn't supposed to be such confusion. I really don't know if one is preferable to the other.<br /><br />How would you change the sentence to remove this ambiguity?<br /><br />If the meaning was supposed to be "The good daughter prepares dinner for the farmer", does that mean I should rearrange it similarly to your alternative for Sentence #2? That is, "Bona filia cenam parat agricolae" ?<br /><br />In retrospect, I think that they are asking for the "for the farmer" translation (instead of "the good farmer's daughter"), because that seems to follow with the sentences before and after this one (viz. #1 "Agricola cum filia in casa habitat" and #2 "Cena est grata agricolae et igracola bonam filiam laudat").<br /><br />Sentence 2 : (His) daughter is getting (parat) a good dinner for the farmer. (62II5)<br /><br />Benissimus: Your second sentence is slightly more precise, in that it provided the (His). This tells you that the "his" is implied and that you won't be needing a genitive. Therefore, it would be Filia agricolae bonam cenam parat, as you put it, or to be a little bit clearer, Filia bonam cenam parat agricolae. Both of course being equally acceptable, though the latter is easier to translate.<br /><br />Ah... you've placed "agricolae" at the end of the sentence! This is new to me, I thought the verb was always at the end. Latin is very much like a puzzle; each word in a sentence needs to be rearranged in various sequences in order to solve the puzzle.<br /><br />
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Re:GEN on DAT?

Postby mariek » Mon Jul 14, 2003 3:32 pm

Context tells you which is meant, but an isolated sentence can be ambiguous. Same with Latin, just that the ambiguity is in a different place. That's why, as is often said in these threads, contextless sentences are tricky.<br /><br />Oh ok. I will keep this in mind when asking questions in the future and try to include some supporting info that might be helpful.
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Re:GEN on DAT?

Postby mariek » Mon Jul 14, 2003 3:34 pm

<br />Beniss dixit: Ah, don't forget that agricola is masculine. Only bonus agricola could mean "good farmer".<br /><br />OK, now I tihnk they meant to say "the good daughter" because we haven't yet learned the declension for masculine or neuter adjectives. So far they've stuck with using feminine adjectives. So we haven't yet touched on "bonus".<br />
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Re:GEN on DAT?

Postby Episcopus » Mon Jul 14, 2003 10:52 pm

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=250;start=0#1375 date=1058222924]<br />[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=250;start=0#1371 date=1058221784]<br />Nice question ;)<br /><br />I think that most of this depends on the context. <br /><br />but, if context is more bonae filiae agri culturae agricolae filium mulcet, then<br /><br /><br />Bona filia agricolae cenam parat.<br /><br />I would translate this as "the good farmer's daughter prepares dinner", because there is more chance (IMO!) of it being <br />"of the farmer" because the emphasis on "agricolae" is less (in the middle). I mean, in english, if one were to say "the farmer's daughter prepares dinner", then " the daughter prepares dinner for the farmer", slightly more emphasis would be on "for the farmer" in the 2nd sentence as opposed to "farmer's" in the 1st. <br />And also " the good daughter" alone raises the question "of whom?" and that could not be good Latin!<br /><br />"Agricolae bona filia cenam parat" I'd translate as <br />"It is the farmer for whom (his) good daughter prepares dinner"<br />or "bona filia cenam parat agricolae" <br /><br />"for the farmer does (his) good daughter prepare dinner"<br /><br />That is my far-fetched 2 cents! <br /><br />..or 50 cent nowadays...<br /><br /> :o <br />[/quote]<br />[/quote]
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Re:GEN on DAT?

Postby Magistra » Mon Jul 14, 2003 11:58 pm

Bona filia agricolae cenam parat.<br /><br />OK now, it has been established that the daughter is "good" -- Nom., Sing., Fem.<br /><br />"Agricolae" is the ambiguous word -- could be Dat. or Gen. --> toss up, unless there is a story for context. (Does D'Ooge not give continuous readings, just these weird sentences?)<br /><br />So there are two basic, correct translations:<br /><br />Gen. The farmer's good daughter prepares dinner.<br />Dat. The good daughter prepares dinner for the farmer.<br /><br />Either is gramatically correct. The context of the storyline would show which is more plausible. (No storyline, you say??? Why bother with this sentence then?)<br /><br />Magistra<br /><br />
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Re:GEN on DAT?

Postby Magistra » Tue Jul 15, 2003 12:03 am

benissimus dixit:<br /><br />Therefore, it would be Filia agricolae bonam cenam parat, as you put it, or to be a little bit clearer, Filia bonam cenam parat agricolae. Both of course being equally acceptable, though the latter is easier to translate.<br /><br />Now we're back on word order -- see my reply on that thread.<br /><br />Magistra
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Re:GEN on DAT?

Postby mariek » Tue Jul 15, 2003 1:43 am

[quote author=Magistra link=board=3;threadid=250;start=0#1383 date=1058227137]<br />So there are two basic, correct translations:<br /><br />Gen. The farmer's good daughter prepares dinner.<br />Dat. The good daughter prepares dinner for the farmer.[/quote]<br /><br />I see how context makes a significant difference in interpreting Latin. I left out a lot of sentences which may have helped interpret the one in question because I didn't want to bog you down with the entire text from the two exercises. I also didn't want to post the entire exercise with all my answers because I really don't expect you all to correct my "homework"; I was just posting the parts that I was having particular difficulties with. However now I see that having the background info it is very important.<br /><br />--==<>==--<br /><br />Here's the text from this exercise.<br /><br />Exercise 62I<br />1. Agricola cum filia in casa habitat.<br />2. Bona filia agricolae cenam parat.<br />3. Cena est grata agricolae et agricola bonam filiam laudat.<br />4. Deinde filia agricolae gallinas ad cenam vocat.<br />5. Gallinae filiam agricolae amant.<br />6. Malae filiae bonas cenas non parant.<br />7. Filia agricolae est grata dominae.<br />8. Domina in insula magna habitat.<br />9. Domina bonae puellae parvae pecuniam dat.<br /><br />Exercise 62II<br />1. Where does the farmer live?<br />2. The farmer lives in the small cottage.<br />3. Who lives with the farmer?<br />4. (His) little daughter lives with the farmer.<br />5. (His) daughter is getting (parat) a good dinner for the farmer.<br />6. The farmer praises the good dinner.<br />7. The daughter's good dinner is pleasing to the farmer.<br /><br />
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Re:GEN on DAT?

Postby Episcopus » Tue Jul 15, 2003 4:49 pm

"6.Malae filiae bonas cenas non parant." <br /><br />I remember this sentence, awesome! So true. <br /><br /><br />
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Re:GEN on DAT?

Postby mariek » Tue Jul 15, 2003 6:20 pm

Doesn't it give you a great feeling when you can read something and it makes sense? I get that thrill when I look at old exercises again. :)<br />
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Re:GEN on DAT?

Postby Episcopus » Tue Jul 15, 2003 6:36 pm

Hell yeah - especially when it's Niob:e et liberi sui ;D
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Re:GEN on DAT?

Postby mariek » Tue Jul 15, 2003 7:28 pm

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=250;start=0#1404 date=1058294203]<br />Hell yeah - especially when it's Niob:e et liberi sui ;D<br />[/quote]Does this mean "Niobe and her children" ?
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Re:GEN on DAT?

Postby Episcopus » Tue Jul 15, 2003 8:23 pm

it should do, unless I be wrong ;)<br /><br /><br />Are you onto those meus, suus, tuus, noster, vester?
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Re:GEN on DAT?

Postby mariek » Tue Jul 15, 2003 8:59 pm

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=250;start=15#1408 date=1058300589]Are you onto those meus, suus, tuus, noster, vester? <br />[/quote]Nope, not quite that far. I'm currently working through the exercise on pg 33. They just presented the 2nd noun declension. This will take me a lot longer to learn compared to the 1st noun declension. And now I have to learn the gender of nouns, and there are three(!) of them. I'm hoping all the noun endings will sink in with more practice.
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Re:GEN on DAT?

Postby mariek » Tue Jul 15, 2003 9:03 pm

Oh, and I noticed that you have changed your image on the left side. Anna Kournikova, eh? Bet you like her for her tennis skills... :P
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Re:GEN on DAT?

Postby Episcopus » Tue Jul 15, 2003 9:21 pm

Theoretically, it makes no sense, just like feminis pulchris equisque amor ;D<br /><br />Well I said I hadn't learnt the ablative of agent yet! <br /><br />2nd declension is easy don't worry ;D<br /><br />I asked you about pronouns because I used liberi sui which means his/her/their children in this case her, and you understood it !<br />
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Re:GEN on DAT?

Postby mariek » Tue Jul 15, 2003 10:01 pm

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=250;start=15#1414 date=1058304076][/quote]<br />2nd declension is easy don't worry ;D <br /><br />Well that's easy for YOU to say since you've already conquered the 2nd declension. :P <br /><br />I asked you about pronouns because I used liberi sui which means his/her/their children in this case her, and you understood it !<br /><br />Oh! I was just taking a wild stab at it... ;) <br />
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